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Julann & Rigah

One thing that puzzled me since I first played SoD - Julann said that she was here to search for the Spawn of Bhaal, and rumors of a being of divine power led her to Dragonspear. But the said being turned out to be an "eccentric hedge mage" who invited Julann for tea.

Was there supposed to be a reference here that I missed or is Julann just gullible and would buy any rumor that she comes across? Who was this hedge mage? Elminster? He seems like the kind of guy who would just invite strangers over for tea, and definitely fits the eccentric part. He is also part divine. But what is he doing hanging around Dragonspear? I wonder if he has been spying on Caelar Argent, much like how he stalked Charname in BG1...

JuliusBorisov

Comments

  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 380
    You could definitely argue that Elminster has a vested interest in the PC, because he shows back up in bg2 if you play your cards right lol.

    JuliusBorisov
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Julann's comment about the "eccentric hedge mage" is never elaborated, SFAIK.

    Yes, Julann is gullible (as shown by her naive trust in Hephernan), so it could have been any random rumour, referring to some irrelevant character whom we never meet.

    In BG2:ToB, we meet numerous minor Bhaalspawn of little power, who are included mainly for flavour. As a foreshadowing of BG2, Julann might have found a real but insignificant Bhaalspawn (but again, an irrelevant character whom we never meet).

    On the other hand, you might be right, it'd be quite in character for Elminster to have been poking around whilst pretending to be a mere hedge mage.

    Similarly (although perhaps less likely), it could conceivably have been some other significant mage character, pretending to be a mere hedge mage to find out how much Julann knew ... the Hooded Man, or Edwin, or one of the Crusade mages, or whoever. IIRC, someone in BG2 accuses Edwin (as a deliberate insult) of being a mere hedge mage, so it's possible this incident with Julann is intended as a reference to that.

    I think the writers deliberately left this detail unresolved, so as to intrigue the player. It's up to you to make your own head-canon assumption about who it might have been. Personally, I think it'd fit rather well if what Julann said is literally true - some insignificant mage about whom there had been an exaggerated rumour. But I reckon the most amusing interpretation is that it was Edwin.

    namarieThacoBellJuliusBorisov
  • namarienamarie Member Posts: 52

    Julann's comment about the "eccentric hedge mage" is never elaborated, SFAIK.
    But I reckon the most amusing interpretation is that it was Edwin.

    I don't remember ever letting Edwin out of my party... Or letting him learn a simulacrum spell.
    So it that was Edwin, then the Edwin that I met in SoD must have been a simulacrum to begin with while the real Edwin is out there having tea with a witch of Rasheman.

    Also given Edwin's charsima and wisdom...

    "You there, Rashemi monkeys, yes I'm talking about you. Join me for some tea. (Well done, Odesseiron. These fools have no idea as to who you are. )"
    "Of course, my little squirrel. Tea would be lovely."

    JuliusBorisov
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @namarie - any encounter between Julann and Edwin (supposing that there was one at all) would have happened after he left your party at the end of the SoD prologue but before you re-recruited him later in SoD - that's a gap of several days in which Edwin is necessarily away from your party. We find him coming back from the direction of Dragonspear, and it turns out later (in his personal quest) that he had very briefly been with the Crusade, so that's when he might conceivably have met Julann.

    And yes, your suggested dialogue between Edwin and Julann is spot on, that's exactly how I imagine it would have gone. Edwin would be disturbed to meet a second Wychlaran so far from home, and would want to know what she was doing, and Julann would be gullible enough to take his tea invitation at face value.

    JuliusBorisov
  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 399
    I thought the "eccentric hedge mage" was Thalantyr. You mean there's more than one?

    JuliusBorisov
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,118

    @namarie - any encounter between Julann and Edwin (supposing that there was one at all) would have happened after he left your party at the end of the SoD prologue but before you re-recruited him later in SoD - that's a gap of several days in which Edwin is necessarily away from your party. We find him coming back from the direction of Dragonspear, and it turns out later (in his personal quest) that he had very briefly been with the Crusade, so that's when he might conceivably have met Julann.

    And yes, your suggested dialogue between Edwin and Julann is spot on, that's exactly how I imagine it would have gone. Edwin would be disturbed to meet a second Wychlaran so far from home, and would want to know what she was doing, and Julann would be gullible enough to take his tea invitation at face value.

    Except that I had Edwin in party when you meet these two and there is no dialog between them at all.

    One of the disappointments for me in SOD was the lack of commentry from original NPC's, that's really what I expected having had so many years of the NPC's being expanded on by the playing community.

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    Except that I had Edwin in party when you meet these two and there is no dialog between them at all.

    So? Edwin must at that point realise that his former cover is now blown, but he doesn't want to say anything which would confirm to you that it was him ... and Julann describes her tea-companion as a "hedge mage" as a deliberate insult to Edwin in retaliation for his earlier deception, correctly guessing that he's too embarrassed to answer back in front of the party. So there's no dialogue between them.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,118
    edited December 2016

    Except that I had Edwin in party when you meet these two and there is no dialog between them at all.

    So? Edwin must at that point realise that his former cover is now blown, but he doesn't want to say anything which would confirm to you that it was him ... and Julann describes her tea-companion as a "hedge mage" as a deliberate insult to Edwin in retaliation for his earlier deception, correctly guessing that he's too embarrassed to answer back in front of the party. So there's no dialogue between them.
    I don't understand this endless defence of the game.

    What former cover, as namarie points out, for many of us he has always been an in party NPC. There is no time for anything, they got the timing catastrophically wrong from the moment the game starts.

    And now you're defending an invented scenario from a player (not that it's a bad one) to explain the lack of
    interaction in game between a Red Wizard and two Rashami by the actual writers.

    SOD is OK, some parts are good, some are not.

    It's a valid opinion to ask why the writers spent so little time expanding the original NPC or adding small bits of relevent dialog when that has always been one of the complaints about BG.





    ThacoBellGallowglass
  • namarienamarie Member Posts: 52
    bleusteel said:

    I thought the "eccentric hedge mage" was Thalantyr. You mean there's more than one?

    if anything, he should be a... HIGH hedge mage.
    Seriously though unless you'd like to get dechickenated, calling Thalantyr a hedge mage is probably a bad idea.

    Except that I had Edwin in party when you meet these two and there is no dialog between them at all.

    So? Edwin must at that point realise that his former cover is now blown, but he doesn't want to say anything which would confirm to you that it was him ... and Julann describes her tea-companion as a "hedge mage" as a deliberate insult to Edwin in retaliation for his earlier deception, correctly guessing that he's too embarrassed to answer back in front of the party. So there's no dialogue between them.
    I'm afraid that was too much of a stretch :^). Edwin being the hedge mage was an amusing idea, but I have to say that it's probably just that - an amusing idea, not intended to be taken seriously (speaking strictly for myself, of course), and PROBABLY not one to get too nitpicky or defensive about

    I don't really mind the lack of conversation between Edwin and Julann, though.

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    I don't understand this endless defence of the game.

    I'm exploring the possibilities for making sense of what the writers wrote, offering some suggestions for head-canon. @namarie started the thread by expressing puzzlement and asking how to interpret Julann's remarks, and my responses have been directly addressing that issue.

    Why bother? Because now that SoD is here as an officially licenced release, SoD is automatically the new canon, whether individual players approve or not.

    It's not so much a defence as an attempt to help players come to terms with it and enjoy it, since we are where we are.

    What former cover, as namarie points out, for many of us he has always been an in party NPC. There is no time for anything, they got the timing catastrophically wrong from the moment the game starts.

    By "former cover" I meant Edwin's pretence of unimportance when inviting Julann to tea (if we suppose that he ever did).

    Edwin has not "always" been a party NPC for anyone. He left the party at the end of the SoD prologue and doesn't rejoin until a few days later, and explicitly tells us that he had (briefly) joined with the Crusade during that gap. That's the opportunity (albeit a narrow one) for a putative encounter with Julann.

    And now you're defending an invented scenario from a player (not that it's a bad one) ...

    The player who suggested it being myself, I simply filled out my suggestion with a couple more details when queried. And I'm glad you don't think it was a bad suggestion.

    SOD is OK, some parts are good, some are not.

    I agree. However, since it is what it is, we may as well make the best of it by trying to interpret our way around some of the more obscure sections ... which I suspect is actually what we end up doing with most other games too.

    It's a valid opinion to ask why the writers spent so little time expanding the original NPC or adding small bits of relevent dialog when that has always been one of the complaints about BG.

    Well, that's a question rather than an opinion.

    Addressing your point, however ... no, I don't really agree on this one. I find the existing amount of expansion of dialogue and banter to be a significant improvement over the amount of interaction in BG1. It's closer to BG2 in its interactivity now, and almost all of the continuing characters (both original BG1 characters and EE characters) are improved and fleshed out by it.

    The one exception I'd call out is Safana, who (instead of being expanded and brought more to life, as in the other cases) has been re-invented as a quite different personality from her BG1 self (and IIRC, Beamdog have somewhere admitted that this is so). That was a very bad design decision, capriciously counter-productive for a sense of continuity. SoD-Safana isn't an inherently implausible character and would probably have worked okay as a new Thief with a different name and portrait, the problem is simply that she isn't the Safana we've known all these years.
    namarie said:

    I'm afraid that was too much of a stretch :^). Edwin being the hedge mage was an amusing idea, but I have to say that it's probably just that - an amusing idea, not intended to be taken seriously (speaking strictly for myself, of course), and PROBABLY not one to get too nitpicky or defensive about

    Yes, I find it quite a stretch myself, even though it was my own suggestion.

    I do find it very amusing to contemplate, but no, I don't really believe it was the actual intention of the writers ... I suspect the writers had in mind that the hedge mage in question was merely Julann investigating a false lead to some irrelevant figure whom we never meet.

    I'm not being "nitpicky or defensive" about it, I'm simply exploring how far the unlikely hypothesis will go when others point out the unlikelihood of it (which I don't deny).

    I don't really mind the lack of conversation between Edwin and Julann, though.

    Neither do I. I'd expect Edwin to be instantly suspicious of any wychlaran, but he'd probably prefer to hang back (and watch cautiously) when others are available to do the talking for him.

    JuliusBorisovThacoBellRadnon
  • MaisCreamMaisCream Member Posts: 2
    edited July 28
    A problem here, desperately need of help (don't want to redo the whole cavern). Rigah and Julann stopped stalking to me (even when I have Minsc and Dynaheir in my party). Rigah keeps saying" My thine arm be strong" and Julann only says: "Don't listen to what the Raccoons say. They are terrible liars". Did I do something wrong? Talked with them too early (before going in the cavern and before I had Minsc/Dynaheir in party)? Is there a way to reset their conversation count/status?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,630
    Did you find the Ritual book in the caverns?

  • MaisCreamMaisCream Member Posts: 2
    Yeps. I have rescued the ghost-dragon, killed the evil mages and got the Ritual book in my inventory. Nothing happened :/

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,630
    Definitely sounds like a bug. Post this (or ask a mod) to move this discussion to the Troubleshooting section. Someone there will be better able to help.

    MaisCream
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