Pure Class Thief - Which second melee weapon proficiencies? Are clubs worth it at all?

Oxford_Guy

Hi - am currently running an evil-aligned (apart from Imoen) party in a BGT-Weidu playthrough as a training run for the party I intend as my first run-through BGEE. I'm intending to keep Imoen as a straight thief into BG2 (which you can do with BGT-Weidu) and am wondering about which weapon's proficiencies to select.

Imoen started with:

Short Sword *
Short Bow *

At level 4 (I think) I added:

Single Weapon Fighting * (as most bucklers are not great, and the higher crit chance is nice for backstabs etc.)

I'm wondering already, though, about the next proficiency selection for a pure thief that will go onto BG2. The main choices seem to be: long swords (though not the best to backstab with, due to speed etc.), clubs (nice to have a blunt weapon, even though there are no good ones in BG1. The BG2 ones look interesting, though) or Scimitars (nice +2 one on the top of Durlag's tower in BG1, but in BG2 perhaps best to let someone who is dual-wielding use the cool ones like Belem in the off-hand in BG2?).

In my current BGT game CHARNAME is an evil fighter/mage with proficiencies in two-handed weapons (two-handed swords currently, then 2-handed fighting, then staves) and long bows, I also have Monteron, who intends to take proficiences in long swords, to wield the +2/+1 cold Varscona long sword.

I think long swords or clubs look to the best next proficiency selection, maybe daggers even, but am not sure. Are clubs worth it or a pure-class thief in BG2? Any tips on pure-class thief weapon profiencies would be welcome!

Oxford_Guy

Anyone? Are clubs worth it all for a thief (in BG2, primarily)? Thanks

Jaxsbudgie

Cloak and DAGGER. Stabby stabby!

Oxford_Guy

So daggers would be better than clubs for a thief in BG2? Will already have short swords, obviously, but am wondering what next...

ryuken87

Staves purely for backstabbing. Staff of Striking from Durlag's in BG1, and in BG2 the Staff of Striking and later Staff of the Ram.

Oxford_Guy

Staves just seems wrong for a sneaky thief, though, and my fighter/mage CHARNAME will be using the best staves (and two-handed swords)....

Mungri

Why do staves seem wrong? In BG they ARE a backstab weapon. Any rogue should definitely put a point in quarterstaffs because they make the best use out of the limited charge staff of striking. This isn't a weapon usable for most classes because it only has 20 charges and then its used up. In conjunction with a backstab, each of those 20 charges, if they succeed to hit will do tremendous damage.

Oxford_Guy

Mungri said:

Why do staves seem wrong? In BG they ARE a backstab weapon. Any rogue should definitely put a point in quarterstaffs because they make the best use out of the limited charge staff of striking. This isn't a weapon usable for most classes because it only has 20 charges and then its used up. In conjunction with a backstab, each of those 20 charges, if they succeed to hit will do tremendous damage.

I dunno, they just seem a little wrong because they're BIG, but I could be persuaded... Regarding the Staff of Striking, can you sell this before it gets to one charge, then buy it again with full charges, like you can for wands? In BG2 are there enough decent staves around for both my CHARNAME Fighter/Mage and Thief to use them (though I guess they could share, as will both have other weapon options too (two-handed swords for the former, short swords for the latter)?

Clubs could still be interesting (for BG2 anyway), though, I mean who else is going to use them (I won't have Jaheira BTW)? If playing a Cleric/Thief I guess they're the only back-stabbing option apart from staves, though I don't I will play that combo.

Daggers just seem a bit week, though the Dagger of Venom in BG1 is quite nasty...

Mungri

Quarterstaffs aren't big, they are just long. Mages can cast spells with them, thieves can backstab with them.

Katanas are way bigger and you can backstab with those, even a shortsword is likely much heavier than a stick of wood.

CaptRory

Consider this: You're sneaking up behind someone and braining them. You're like... the thug thief hiding in an alley clunking somone on the head to get their purse. =3

Jaxsbudgie

The devs are adding a magical club into BG:EE, as well as (I think) restoring a missing magical club from BG1.

elminster

Enchanted clubs in the game are incorrectly given the wrong speed. It doesn't make a huge difference in terms of combat, but speed does help a little in that it basically can determine who hits first each round. BGEE is reportedly fixing items problems with speed, which I assume will include clubs, but until that time I'd especially say stick with a staff for imoen if you want her doing a blunt backstab. Otherwise a sword or dagger will do. Even still, since there are no enchanted clubs in bg1 you are better off avoiding them unless you are playing for RP reasons.

In BG2 there are clubs available that are enchanted, but again they are bugged. So since you are backstabbing they would work well enough, but I'd personally look for another weapon for her to use for most combat.

Mortianna

I'd take crossbow. Once you get the Crossbow of Speed, you'll have the same fire rate as your short bow. Plus, you'll do more damage, have a longer range, and can use bolts of lightning and biting.

Oxford_Guy

Jaxsbudgie said:

The devs are adding a magical club into BG:EE, as well as (I think) restoring a missing magical club from BG1.

The Root of the Problem?

Quartz

Oxford_Guy said:

Jaxsbudgie said:

The devs are adding a magical club into BG:EE, as well as (I think) restoring a missing magical club from BG1.

The Root of the Problem?

Yes sir.

Mortianna said:

I'd take crossbow. Once you get the Crossbow of Speed, you'll have the same fire rate as your short bow. Plus, you'll do more damage, have a longer range, and can use bolts of lightning and biting.

Agree with this. Crossbow of Speed is nice to have on your thief so they can use fancy ammo, plus it does more damage than a Short Bow. (1d8 vs. 1d6)

Oxford_Guy

Are the light crossbows in BG2 worth it?

Quartz

Oxford_Guy said:

Are the light crossbows in BG2 worth it?

Firetooth is sexy. You can buy it real quick if you have good money, since it's sold by the chick at the top of Watcher's Keep ... not within the keep itself.

http://www.mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/weapons/crossbows.html

Mungri

Eagle bow has an extra thaco over the light bow of speed though. I tend to think of crossbows as bard or archer weapons.

I can't remember if this was answered before, but do elf bonuses apply to crossbows as well?

Oxford_Guy

Mungri said:

I can't remember if this was answered before, but do elf bonuses apply to crossbows as well?

No, they don't, I tested this recently

sandmanCCL

In short, yes clubs are worth it. Blunt weaponry is teh pwnz.

Oxford_Guy

Quartz said:

Oxford_Guy said:

Are the light crossbows in BG2 worth it?

Firetooth is sexy. You can buy it real quick if you have good money, since it's sold by the chick at the top of Watcher's Keep ... not within the keep itself.

http://www.mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/weapons/crossbows.html

Nice, but not available until ToB...

Mungri

So that rules out using heavy crossbows on elves since they are better with bows. Non elf plain rangers or fighters and bards are probably the only classes suited to heavy crossbows. If I have multiple thieves, then it would be good to give one the light xbow of speed and another the eagle bow, but I have never been able to find a character to use the heavy xbow of accuracy on, it fires slow and most characters that can use it are better off in melee.

elminster

Mungri said:

So that rules out using heavy crossbows on elves since they are better with bows. Non elf plain rangers or fighters and bards are probably the only classes suited to heavy crossbows. If I have multiple thieves, then it would be good to give one the light xbow of speed and another the eagle bow, but I have never been able to find a character to use the heavy xbow of accuracy on, it fires slow and most characters that can use it are better off in melee.

The bonus with elves is what, a +1 bonus to attack with a bow. I mean, its nice to have, but by no means does it rule out using a crossbow if you want to. Especially considering their high dexterity.

@Oxford_Guy, can't you just go to Watcher's Keep during SoA and buy it?

Mungri

No you're right. But generally I'd only make an elven Archer and they can use crossbows too, but they still have an extra bonus with bows.

Quartz

Oxford_Guy said:

Quartz said:

Oxford_Guy said:

Are the light crossbows in BG2 worth it?

Firetooth is sexy. You can buy it real quick if you have good money, since it's sold by the chick at the top of Watcher's Keep ... not within the keep itself.

http://www.mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/weapons/crossbows.html

Nice, but not available until ToB...

No sir you are incorrect. I just said, you can buy it real quick. Watcher's Keep is in BGII standard with ToB installed, though of course you'd have to be quite high level to actually do any good there. But the shopkeep isn't in the dungeon itself, so you could easily get out of Irenicus' dungeon, go through the mandatory talk with Gaelan Bayle, then run to the City Gates. Then go to Watcher's Keep, to the shopkeep at the top of the tower before entering. Purchase Firetooth. Leave.

elminster said:

@Oxford_Guy, can't you just go to Watcher's Keep during SoA and buy it?

See elminster agrees with me, I'm not crazy.

Mungri said:

Eagle bow has an extra thaco over the light bow of speed though. I tend to think of crossbows as bard or archer weapons.

I can't remember if this was answered before, but do elf bonuses apply to crossbows as well?

Right, but if he doesn't have a bard, then all the fancy bolt ammo will be for piss. I personally liked to have Imoen by the end of the game equipped with both the Eagle Bow AND Light Crossbow of Speed, so she can cycle all sorts of fancy ammo. Yeah, no melee unless I really meant it and had to go to my inventory. That's just me though.

That said yes, Bards + Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy = Win.

sandmanCCL

Don't forget the Eagle Bow is the best bow, if not weapon, in the entire game because it allows you to damage with your strength modifier.

It's pretty fun watching a dude with 24 strength use regular arrows to hit guys for like 25 damage at a time.

Oxford_Guy

Quartz said:

Oxford_Guy said:

Quartz said:

Oxford_Guy said:

Are the light crossbows in BG2 worth it?

Firetooth is sexy. You can buy it real quick if you have good money, since it's sold by the chick at the top of Watcher's Keep ... not within the keep itself.

http://www.mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/weapons/crossbows.html

Nice, but not available until ToB...

No sir you are incorrect. I just said, you can buy it real quick. Watcher's Keep is in BGII standard with ToB installed, though of course you'd have to be quite high level to actually do any good there. But the shopkeep isn't in the dungeon itself, so you could easily get out of Irenicus' dungeon, go through the mandatory talk with Gaelan Bayle, then run to the City Gates. Then go to Watcher's Keep, to the shopkeep at the top of the tower before entering. Purchase Firetooth. Leave.

elminster said:

@Oxford_Guy, can't you just go to Watcher's Keep during SoA and buy it?

See elminster agrees with me, I'm not crazy.

Okay, I believe you! :-)

I've not played much of BG2 (mostly just BG1), so don't know about these things...

Mungri said:

Eagle bow has an extra thaco over the light bow of speed though. I tend to think of crossbows as bard or archer

Right, but if he doesn't have a bard, then all the fancy bolt ammo will be for piss. I personally liked to have Imoen by the end of the game equipped with both the Eagle Bow AND Light Crossbow of Speed, so she can cycle all sorts of fancy ammo

Yes, I guess it could be seen as a bit of a waste of ammo otherwise. For a non-dualed Imoen, would you prioritise getting proficiency in crossbow over single weapon fighting and/or staves/clubs/daggers in BG1? I don't think I'll be using her to melee except in emergency nor even to backstab in BG1 (that's Monty's job), though would like her to in BG2.

Oxford_Guy

sandmanCCL said:

Don't forget the Eagle Bow is the best bow, if not weapon, in the entire game because it allows you to damage with your strength

I didn't know that, where is that documented? Is this a bug or intentional? Doesn't really make a difference for Imoen, but could be enough reason for CHARNAME to take short bows instead of long bows...

Oxford_Guy

Apparently the Strength bonus for the Eagle Bow was considered a bug and has been removed in BGEE: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/4312/the-eagle-bow-bug

Quartz

Oxford_Guy said:

Apparently the Strength bonus for the Eagle Bow was considered a bug and has been removed in BGEE: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/4312/the-eagle-bow-bug

Yessir, good job hunting that down yourself I was seeing the above posts and lamenting how I was going to have to find that thread ... xD

Dino

Nothing clunky about a ninja staff! Think Donatello from TMNT ^^