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Thoughts on this party of five - and couple questions...

First some backdrop..
I'm not really caring too much about the RPG aspect at all for IWD. More interested in just fun combat, bashing heads, basic dungeon crawling. I preface that because I know there are certain classes for a first run that open up more interesting dialog, but not super interested in that at this time.

Planning on core rules.

Was thinking of this party:
  • Dwarven Defender (I like that he doesn't take much micromanagement.) (axes/hammers)
  • Berserker (Human maybe dual at 7 to Cleric - not sure if I'll dual or not going human just in case. dual Flails/Mace)
  • Druid (Totemic)
  • F/T (Elf - my thief and archer. two handed sword. I don't care about backstab so maybe go with Swashie?)
  • gnome I/C
Some questions...

1) I was thinking with just five, my I/C would level up a bit faster so that I'm not too gimped on spell availability. I typically find when I run with mages in bg, that most of the time they're not doing much for all the trash fights, so I figured I'd try tying him with a cleric.

2) I know a lot of people love taking a bard, so I'm thinking of taking a skald along .. which I wouldn't mind since I'd just let him sing, and he'd be an extra pack mule and can use his lore. (I could also have him pick up some magic schools missing with my Illusionist.) I'm curious though how much I'd notice a slower leveling (esp with my I/C) having the 6th slot filled though?



Comments

  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 300
    All depends what difficulty setting your starting on and if your gonna use that party for multiple playthroughs. Sorcerer is always a good choice for IWD for having higher level spells earlier.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,003
    you should have no problems with that team on core rules, although I might have some suggestions:

    for your berserker, it might not be necessary to dual him into cleric, since you already have a druid and a cleric type, you probably wont need the extra divine spell casting ( even on HoF mode I still only use one divine caster and get by just fine) so maybe make him a half-orc just for the 19 STR and CON, unless of coarse you really want to dual him into a cleric, then I so give 'er gas

    as for the thief, if you want to make it an archer type, you will definitely want to go with bows that give the extra attacks per round, those extra attack per round bows are absolute menaces, especially if you make a swashbuckler you will definitely want to give them the attacks per round bow, if you really want to pump out some serious attack per round/damage potential what I do is, is have a human swashbuckler human and then dual class at level 11 into fighter, its kind of a long trek back to hit level 12 in your fighter class ( usually I hit around chapter 5 when I get my thief skills back) but man, does that ever make an crazy bow shootin' thief, attacks per round and damage out the ying yang

    as for question #1: not really sure if this is a question or statement, but I would stick with the damaging spells for the mage part, and focus on those defensive spells with our cleric, ( bless, chant, recitation, prayer, protection from evil 10' radius, defensive harmony come to mind)

    and as for question #2: if you do choose a bard, I would suggest giving your bard all the defensive party mage spells for 2 reasons: A) he is going to grow up levels quickly, and spell durations are based on level, so your bard is always going to be a higher level than your I/C so the durations will last longer with your bard, and B ) he will probably hit level 5 and 6 spells sooner, I don't 100% remember what the bard table is for spells, but for a wizard, they need to hit level 12 before they get their first level 6 spell, which is 750 000xp, but since you are a multiclass that means you need to hit 1 500 000 xp before you get your first level 6 spell, and I believe bards hit level six spells around 1 100 000xp ( although the IWD tables might be different for bards) so I say for defensive party spells, give them to your bard, and have him sing afterwards, and then give all the offensive stuff to your I/C
  • rickcrrickcr Member Posts: 73
    @sarevok57 great stuff . Thanks.

    I love the idea of the swashie/fighter but wouldn't going that long without a thief for the dual be annoying?

    How do you think your Swash/F archer is compared to a dedicated archer class?

    I might just go with a relatively cookie cutter party (other than not having a pure class cleric)

    Druid (Totemic)
    Dwarven Defender
    Berserker (Human dual at 7 to Cleric)
    Swashbuckler
    Sorcerer
    Archer

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,003
    rickcr said:

    @sarevok57 great stuff . Thanks.

    I love the idea of the swashie/fighter but wouldn't going that long without a thief for the dual be annoying?


    its not as bad as it looks, if you have your swashbuckler hit level 11, ( and if you don't grind mindlessly) you will probably be at the tale end of chapter 2 if not at the beginning of chapter 3, and to be perfectly honest, you don't really need a thief, yes they are useful, but you can get buy with knock spells, and most traps are just lightning or fireballs which again you can use spells to get immunity to, or others might poison or confuse your characters, but ironically those traps are in the earlier part of the game so the time you go to dual over, all the annoying or hard traps will probably be gone, and then it will just be the damaging traps left, and also, once you finish chapter 4 ( which I think is dorn's deep) thieves become even more obsolete afterwards as the traps and locked containers start to dwindle

    so based on that, that's why I hit level 11 then dual over to fighter, and especially level 11 because that is when the thief gets their upgrade to their snare damage as well, and will have 3 snares instead of 2 at level 10

    How do you think your Swash/F archer is compared to a dedicated archer class?

    when it comes to to hit/to damage using a bow, the archer is uncontested in doing so but that is really all they have going for them, a S/F is a bit more versatile and also has a big AC advantage, since with 11 levels of swash you will get a +3 AC bonus, and also because of those thief levels you will be able to wear thief items ( that a ranger cant wear) and if you have some fighter, then you can wear fighter items as well ( like heavy armors when it comes time to not needing to do the trap disarming/lock picking) plus S/F can place more than 1 proficiency in a melee weapon, which may not be a big deal, but archers can't do squat in melee combat, which might not be to much of a problem if you are good at keeping your archer out of melee combat


    now based on your team composition here I see that you have a swashbuckler and an archer, and if you are going to go that route, and depending on how you are going to play your swashbuckler, you might want to swap out your archer for a kensai, and here is my reasoning for that:

    if your swashbuckler is going to use a bow, then I would suggest making a kensai instead of an archer, yes the archer is great with a bow, as I said before there is no one who can use a bow better, but there is a couple of caveats, first off, magical arrows are in short supply in IWD, there be infinite bullets +2 in IWD, but no such luck with arrows, and surprisingly enough there are quite a few enemies that require magical weapons to even damage, so this is wear the kensai comes in, there is an item that basically makes the kensai a ranged powerhouse, and its relatively early in the game, and its the throwing axe +2, best part of that weapon is; it never runs out, its a +2 weapon, and your STR gets added to the damage, plus a kensai gets the +1 to hit/to damage every 3 levels like an archer, but kensais grow up levels faster than an archer, so your damage output will technically be better, plus since he will be using a magical axe, he will be able to damage a lot more enemies than your archer

    but in hindsight, you said you are going to be playing on core rules, so I don't think you will be getting the swarm of enemies that the harder difficulties give, so if you want both swashy and archer in ranged combat it could still work just as well, im just not a fan of having too many charcters in ranged combat that rely on ammunition ( although in my game I modded the blacksmith dude's store so he has way more stuff, because to be honest, his store is kind of lame, and I also gave him a returning +1 throwing dagger that deals 1 acid damage on each hit as well)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 7,559
    Compared to the party I'm playing right now (fighter, cleric, thief + 3 bards) all of these parties seem more than capable.

    Also I disagree that the Archer should become a Kensai. A DDefender and a Berserker are beyond adequate for tanking, the missile support from Swash + Archer will be extremely useful. And the Swash and Archer are both perfectly serviceable as 2nd-string melee.
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 300
    I normally run with a fighter multiclass of some sort with a druid a sorcerer then it's just gap fills depending how I want to steamroll things.
  • former_customerformer_customer Member Posts: 103
    So, what are the thoughts on multi- vs. dual classing for a one-time playthrough? Is there enough time to bother with dual-classing, or will it likely leave you with gimped characters through too much of the game?
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,003

    So, what are the thoughts on multi- vs. dual classing for a one-time playthrough? Is there enough time to bother with dual-classing, or will it likely leave you with gimped characters through too much of the game?

    it depends on what level you dual your character and what classes are involved with it, some great dual class options are; warrior 7/ dual to cleric, warrior 7 (9) / dual to mage, warrior 7/ dual to thief, and with that, if you dual a warrior at level 7 into another class, you should hit level 8 sometime in chapter 2, with level 9+ it does take a little longer, but IWD is only half the game, HOW comes with trail of the lure master so the HOW game almost feels as big as IWD, so even if you do a fighter 13, and then dual over, you should be set to go for HOW worse case scenario

    also based on team size as well, the smaller the team, the faster you grow up levels, so if you have a team of 4, and perhaps do a dual class at level 13, then its quite feasible that you will surpass that level in IWD before you hit HOW

    I think the main advantage of dual class over multi classing is that you can get up to 5 proficiencies with a fighter classed dualed into something else, plus its a nice HP boost and you only have 1 class to level up, where as with multi classing, you get all the abilities right away, but they require double or sometimes triple the XP to grow up in levels

    the way I see it, multi classes are very strong at lower levels ( 500 000- XP ) but once they hit around that mark, they kind of start to fall behind a bit because of the huge amount of XP needed to grow up levels, and then with dual classing, they are kind of rough to begin with, but once they get their original abilities back to start to shine and since only one class needs XP they grow up levels faster
    former_customer
  • former_customerformer_customer Member Posts: 103
    So, how about:

    Pally (Undead Hunter)--longsword, hammer/shield/some kind of bow
    Berserker--dual axes
    Skald--something one-handed/Crossbow
    Kensai (7 or 9)--->Mage--Quarterstaff/Sling
    Warrior (7 or 9)--->Thief--Bows/ Dual longswords (or maybe another sword type)
    Berserker (7 or 9)--->Cleric--Dual hammers or flails

    With the skald running, the dedicated front liners would get a boost during the dual-classing lean times. Would three utility dual-classes be workable? And are there clear weapon preferences for the different classes, aside from pallies and longswords?

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,003

    So, how about:

    Pally (Undead Hunter)--longsword, hammer/shield/some kind of bow
    Berserker--dual axes
    Skald--something one-handed/Crossbow
    Kensai (7 or 9)--->Mage--Quarterstaff/Sling
    Warrior (7 or 9)--->Thief--Bows/ Dual longswords (or maybe another sword type)
    Berserker (7 or 9)--->Cleric--Dual hammers or flails

    With the skald running, the dedicated front liners would get a boost during the dual-classing lean times. Would three utility dual-classes be workable? And are there clear weapon preferences for the different classes, aside from pallies and longswords?

    I've had hundreds if not thousands of play throughs where I would bring in 3 dual classers at once, and usually kind of in the way that you are doing it now, where the cleric/thief/mage have some levels of fighter in them, I even do it in bg1 sometimes and it still works

    one thing I would suggest though is your kensai/mage set up; if you have any levels of kensai anywhere you will never be able to use ranged weapons, not even when you get your fighter levels back, but if you want to go ranged with your kensai there is a way, and it is VERY effective, put proficiency in axe, because in chapter 2 there is a returning throwing axe that you can give him/her and the best part is, you never have to go back to town to stock up on ammunition, I love that returning throwing axe, and its magical as well, so it can affect all those enemies that require magical weapons to damage, I would suggest if you go this route, level up your kensai until you hit level 9, then dual over to mage, and when you do hit your mage levels, have your mage stop growing up levels when you hit level 5, then wait until your mage hits the 250 000 xp mark so then you can skip to level 10, this will make it so you don't waste a proficiency point on your level up, it can be kind of a trek doing so, but it makes your kensai mage that much better

    for the thief and cleric, level 7 is more than good enough, growing to level 9 is only going to give them a little bit of a boost in HP, and nothing else ( you will still have the same amount of proficiencies since thieves and clerics get another one a level 8, and eventually their thac0s will be better than a level 9 fighter anyway)

    although for your thief depending on how you want to play it, I would probably give it a two handed weapon of some sort, granted your thief will have better to hit than a normal thief, but even then it still might be hard to hit a negative thac0 with a melee weapon, so I wouldn't consider using the thief as main melee guy, ( using a bow that gives multiple attacks per round is definately the way to go i think) although if you want to do some backstabbing giving your thief skill in katana is a good choice, there is an easy to find katana in chapter 1 and an easy to find katana in chapter 2 which would be a great backstab weapon and then nym sells a katana +3

    former_customer
  • former_customerformer_customer Member Posts: 103
    Oops, I forgot that the Kensai can't use normal ranged weapons. I already have an axe specialist, though. Hmm.

    Wait--does IWD have the upgrade allowing you to have the dual-wield slot occupied when holding a two-handed weapon, like in BGEE? Because that would pretty much require the two-handed weapon, like you say (or a good one-hander with the spec for extra crit range). Does IWDEE use the 3rd Edition sort of sneak attack, or does it go with 2nd Edition backstab, where the kind of weapon matters?
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 7,559
    edited February 6

    So, what are the thoughts on multi- vs. dual classing for a one-time playthrough? Is there enough time to bother with dual-classing, or will it likely leave you with gimped characters through too much of the game?

    IMHO people talk about dual-classing only with an eye to how powerful you end up - like, in TOB. IWD is a very different game, with less high-power end-game content (just a single fight, basically) and MUCH more mobs throwing themselves at you during the middle levels. While dual-classing is tolerable in BG2 and it's not hard to be carried by the rest of the team during your downtime, I find it much more annoying in IWD. I very much favor multiclassing in this game.
    former_customer
  • former_customerformer_customer Member Posts: 103

    So, what are the thoughts on multi- vs. dual classing for a one-time playthrough? Is there enough time to bother with dual-classing, or will it likely leave you with gimped characters through too much of the game?

    IMHO people talk about dual-classing only with an eye to how powerful you end up - like, in TOB. IWD is a very different game, with less high-power end-game content (just a single fight, basically) and MUCH more mobs throwing themselves at you during the middle levels. While dual-classing is tolerable in BG2 and it's not hard to be carried by the rest of the team during your downtime, I find it much more annoying in IWD. I very much favor multiclassing in this game.
    Definitely another respectacle position. I'be seen that both you and Sarevok know the game well. It would appear, at least, that both ways allow for effective play, if two very good players can prefer the opposite approaches.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,003

    Oops, I forgot that the Kensai can't use normal ranged weapons. I already have an axe specialist, though. Hmm.

    Wait--does IWD have the upgrade allowing you to have the dual-wield slot occupied when holding a two-handed weapon, like in BGEE? Because that would pretty much require the two-handed weapon, like you say (or a good one-hander with the spec for extra crit range). Does IWDEE use the 3rd Edition sort of sneak attack, or does it go with 2nd Edition backstab, where the kind of weapon matters?

    that weapon update was when the BGEEs went 2.x and higher I believe, I don't think IWD has that, and when it comes to sneak attack, you can go either way 2nd edition or 3rd edition, I think there is an option in the options menu to change it, if not you can go to the .ini file and change the "0" to "1" for 3rd edition sneak attack

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