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is fair fight possible at all if magic used

This thing has been bugging me for a long time, longer than I care to remember - some kind of concept of honorable combat, origins probably in Dragonlance´s Sturm´s moustache.

More often than I care to count my party is under crowd control, which while soloing usually means game over. Since such a thing is a nuisance, veritable party killer,

I tend to end up picking spells like Hold Person etc, because the seem so powerful and make the game in general a race of who casts first and moreso who fails save first.

I´m intrigued by wizard slayers and inquisitors, and a playthrough without magic, but I´m left oftentimes to ponder how on earth such a set up will deal with damage if clerics and mages are left out of the party?

Is it truly vainglory that I´m after, or some unbearable headache?
BelgarathMTH

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    "Fairness" is a very subjective concept in this context. As is "honorable combat". If you want to set yourself rules, you are free to do so - and as always, imposing constraints is a disadvantage compared to not imposing them. How much of a disadvantage, that is also quite subjective in many cases.

    In that sense, it's hard to say whether it'll be an "unbearable headache" or a pleasurable buzz for you to forego the more - ahem - potent combat options, let's call them. I believe the game can be solo'd by just about any class, so there's no barrier of impossibility at least. It will undoubtedly be more difficult.
    ThacoBell
  • Jirayia2Jirayia2 Member Posts: 18
    I don't have time to set up traps, lure mobs or use magic spells that will probably hurt my party more than the enemies.

    My party must roll hard melee, no mistakes here, we go in we go out. Simple mind, straight kill.

    And Wizard Slayer is just a nerfed Fighter tbh
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    I'm into the "honorable combat" thing too, since I have a lot of paladin-esque attitudes in my real personality. It's definitely doable with an inquisitor, a lawful good cleric, and a lawful good mage. The main job of the lawful good mage and cleric is to stop evil mages and clerics from doing their dirty, dishonorable tricks.

    Role-playing wise, Ajantis, Minsc, Keldorn, Anomen, Mazzy, and Valygar fit really well with the theme.

    I'm pretty sure it can be done solo, but it's a lot harder. You'd have to use a lot of potions and equip just the right magic items at just the right times.

    But why solo if you want to roleplay the value system of honor, fairness, right and justice? Camaraderie, friendship, and teamwork are a part of that.
    DJKajurujscohen
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    semiticgoddess
  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 207
    edited March 2017
    Your candor is much appriciated. https://youtube.com/watch?v=U1dmS06j8Y8
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
    I worry about this fairness thing a lot, which is why I use as a house rule [pasted from the no-reload thread]:

    "Do unto the AI as you would have the AI do unto you."
    Basically, avoid doing things that AI is incapable of.
    Example: As per the discussion in the following link, I do not permit myself to use Sequencers mid combat. They are no longer an obvious first choice for a Sorcerer. (Casting 3 spells a round really breaks the balance.)
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/44257/7-3x4-8-3x6-9-3x8


    Furthermore, I use SCS for enemy mage AI. That way if you lose, you lose fair and square.
    CrevsDaakBelgarathMTH[Deleted User]
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    If you really dislike crowd control spells then you could replace all confusion and domination effects with an alternative (straight damage, slow, penalty to thac0 or such). That could level the playing field again.
  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 421
    Well Mustache twirler you ain't in Krynn anymore, here in Faerûn we confuse, web, hold and do everything we can to ruin your Day.

    but "Fear" not... some classes are better than other dealing with those pesky Spell users.

    For once we have Elves with their Natural 90% immunity to Sleep and Charm.
    Dwarf/Gnomes and Halflings come to boot with extra rolls for most status effects.

    The Paladin Cavalier is Immune to Fear and Charm (also poison and morale failure) and would align best with Sturm's Values. not to mention Paladins get a solid anti mage weapon around BG2.

    and if you don't mind some Holy assistance the Cleric (preferable fighter to cleric dual) will make your day for they are the King of Protecting spells.

    there are also a lot of Items granting a variety of Immunity's. to an extend that in reaching BG2 you can make a single character unstoppable and dispel magic with every Hit.
    FlashburnCrevsDaakBelgarathMTHsemiticgoddess
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    A dwarven berserker with high CON, once s/he gets to level 13 or so, is very nearly indestructible, or very actually indestructible while enraged.
    JuliusBorisovjesterdesu
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    I dunno, I always believed that no fight to the death is "fair". There are only the living and dead.
    JoenSoJuliusBorisovArtona
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    You can fight "fair" of course, just take a Blackguard, an Archer and an Assassin, and you can do with little magic (don't forget to take a heal bot too). But that may not be your style.

    I finished an IWD walkthrough recently where I had melee characters only, (berserker/druid, kensai/mage, swashbuckler, fighter/cleric, melee dragon desciple IIRC) It was a blast.
  • jscohenjscohen Member Posts: 117
    Ygramul said:


    I do not permit myself to use Sequencers mid combat. They are no longer an obvious first choice for a Sorcerer.

    Yes! I do this one too. Perhaps it's my NES roots, but I expect games to be challenging (ask me about Arkham City some day when it won't be horrendously off-topic).

    Another thing you might consider is to avoid items that set an attribute to a high value (eg. Ring of Human Influence, Crom Faeyr) and instead use ones that provide a specific bonus to an attribute instead (eg. Blade of Roses, Malakar)
    CrevsDaakArctodusYgramul
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Whenever some joinable has a nemesis (kivan -tazok, branwen-tranzig, rasaad-gamaz etc) I understand that their fight is supposed to be a duel, so I let them fight accordingly while the others take care of their minions.

    Also, I'm currently playing with a paladin and a party mostly composed by fighters and clerics, so it became kind of impossible for me to use good old magic tactics that I used to do before. On the other hand, I buff my fighters a lot and charge difficult enemies on a regular basis, which sounds more appropriate and honorable for a cavalier.
    DrakeICNtbone1CrevsDaak
  • WayniacWayniac Member Posts: 132
    Ygramul said:

    Basically, avoid doing things that AI is incapable of.

    Do you ever use the "Pause" feature?
    ThacoBelltbone1Artonasemiticgoddess
  • WayniacWayniac Member Posts: 132
    But setting all joking aside, @Tarlugn I think you're asking the wrong question. Look at it this way:

    -Is a 10-on-1 fight a fair fight?

    -What if the ten men are all level 20 barbarians who ambushed the one man, who is a level 2 archer with no arrows?

    -What if the ten men are all level 1 shopkeepers who have been ambushed by the one man who is a level 20 mage with no equipment, but knows timestop?

    What makes both of these battles unfair? It isn't just the numbers, because we can give examples where it is "unfairly" weighted toward each side. It isn't just the lack of equipment, obviously. It isn't the class that's been chosen. So what is it?

    -What if it is a 1-on-1 battle of a level 20 paladin vs a level 3 paladin? Is that fair?

    -What if those two paladins had the same amount of time to perfect their training and one of them worked his ass off while the other watched tv all day while eating pork rinds? Then is it a fair fight?

    If you say no, then you're arguing that if somebody puts in the hard work to get where they are, it isn't "fair" in some sense. If you answer yes, then you're making an assumption based on incomplete information. I never told you which paladin spent his time eating pork rinds? What if it's the level 20 and he was gifted his skill set by a god moments before the battle?

    Arguably, the thing that defines whether or not it's a fair fight is a perceived skill edge. I feel like you're arguing that it is never really a fair fight with a mage because mages are so OP or because not everyone has access to magic. But just because someone chose a different trade to master doesn't mean it is inherently unfair. After all, some people are stronger physically than others due to genetics. So again I ask you, what is a fair fight?

    From a mathematical perspective, for a fight to truly be "fair" there needs to be exactly a 50% chance of each side in the fight winning (or 33% if three people are involved, 25% with four, etc). If at any point this number is skewed in one direction or the other, the fight becomes "unfair".

    My point is simply this: no matter what example you give of what could potentially be considered a fair fight, there almost always exists some piece of information that would persuade you into thinking that it's not as fair as you once thought it was. Why is fighting a mage any more unfair than fighting a barbarian who uses his muscles and unusually high strength? Or fighting an archer who uses his unnaturally high dexterity?

    Or fighting a child of Bhaal?
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    edited March 2017
    Wayniac said:

    Ygramul said:

    Basically, avoid doing things that AI is incapable of.

    Do you ever use the "Pause" feature?
    A computer have no need of a pause button, because clickety-clicking and picking tactic is near instant for the computer - it is certainly instant in a human time scale. In practice, the computer uses the pause button FASTER THAN YOU DO, because human reaction times are about 0,2 seconds, and to this you must add whatever time it takes for you to mash the space button. The pause button actually even things out...

    (Except that BG AI is vastly inferior to the human brain, so maybe avoiding the pause button is a fair handicap, but that is another discussion.)
    BelgarathMTHsemiticgoddess
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    Only fair fight I can see is when parties agree on rules and terms beforehand: "pistols at dawn", etc. Otherwise, it can't be fair, or at least it's extremely hard to judge what is fair and what is not. It is fair for Berserk to use rage and basically neutralize enemy mage? Is it fair to use True Seeing to localize enemy assassins? Is it fair for a swordsman to fight another, if one has inborn talent, while other one has not?
    So fight won't be fair even if magic won't be used. It doesn't bother me personally. History is written by victors, is it not? ;)
  • WayniacWayniac Member Posts: 132
    DrakeICN said:

    Wayniac said:

    Ygramul said:

    Basically, avoid doing things that AI is incapable of.

    Do you ever use the "Pause" feature?
    A computer have no need of a pause button, because clickety-clicking and picking tactic is near instant for the computer - it is certainly instant in a human time scale. In practice, the computer uses the pause button FASTER THAN YOU DO, because human reaction times are about 0,2 seconds, and to this you must add whatever time it takes for you to mash the space button. The pause button actually even things out...

    (Except that BG AI is vastly inferior to the human brain, so maybe avoiding the pause button is a fair handicap, but that is another discussion.)
    The reality is that the pause feature does not even the playing field. It can give the player an unfair advantage. The computer is running off of a list of preconfigured scripts and by allowing the human to pause it for as long as they want, it gives the player as much time as they want to find an optimal solution. The computer, on the other hand, is not programmed to always take an optimal line. It takes a pretty good line most of the time, but not always optimal.

    So really, the only way for the pause feature to be fair would be if we knew exactly how many calculations per minute the computer can do, how many the player can do, and only allow a certain amount of pause time between each action that equally gives the computer and the human the same number of calculations to come up with a decision. Of course this would differ from player to player as well.

    The point is that there's no such thing as a fair fight no matter what class you choose to use. Period.
    CrevsDaak
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    Go berserker for easy mode but most warriors get really high saves by late game too.

    Hardiness is a good way to replace health as when you stack it 3 times physical damage heals you.

    I always found the rod of resurrection pretty nice too as it effectively casts heal when used on a live character.
  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 207
    So this remains the truth about "might & magic" : 3 against 1, so sad; so unfair.
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