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Let's talk about KOTOR II and Kreia

ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
edited February 2018 in Off-Topic
While i do think Knights of the Old Republic is a worthy sequel of the first game, glitches and dummied out parts aside, i have to admit, as a Star Wars fan since childhood, that its deconstructive nature felt a bit too whiny and heavy handed and a ''hate letter'' from Avellone to Star Wars lore and its fans, which is unavoidable since that hate letter is in the game's dna.

And i really dislike Kreia, its easy to make her sound intelligent, especially when the writer has the ability to make her sound like she's Always right at a first glance.
Even Avellone admitted he used Kreia's speeches to tear the lore of Star Wars apart, at least the parts that bothered him.

What i really hate, though, are those Youtube and forum commenters who played the game and believe every word Kreia says, and start ranting about how dumb and childish the Star Wars universe is and how boring characters like Obi-Wan and Luke are; ignoring that she is still a fundamentally villainous character (i know, spoilers), and that when she tried to put her own beliefs into action, she ended up creating one guy who tried to enslave the galaxy before getting mindwiped and become a hero, another guy who is a consumate masochist who needs pain to sustain himself, and another guy who turned into a humanoid eldritch abomination who eats planets Galactus-style. And when other characters called her out on this, she brushes off her responsibilities and blames the Force itself, thinking its some kind of evil manipulative entity, and thus, in true Avellone and Obsidian morally grey fashion, she turns out to be a bitter, vindictive, self-righteous old crone who is charismatic and well written enough to make the more inexperienced players believe the jedi are the real narrow-minded douchebags when in reality she isn't better than them.

Her character arc can be summed up with this: "I belive I'm right. I'm a 'grey' Jedi" "Kreia, your disciple just tried to destroy the world. You're wrong" "Screw you dumb moral guardians, I'll prove you wrong just wait and see." "Now you've gone and made three people who've tried to destroy the galaxy" "It's not my fault. It's the Force. I hate you and I'll kill you all" "Kreia, we still don't believe you and you forgot your meds." "Well I'll try and destroy the Force, even though it would kill us all. Then you'll see"

These aren't the ideas of a ''grey jedi'', they are the ideas of a smug objectivist douche.


Post edited by ShapiroKeatsDarkMage on
CrevsDaakThacoBell[Deleted User]HalfOrcBeastmasterWarChiefZeke
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Comments

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155

    she ended up creating one guy who tried to enslave the galaxy before getting mindwiped and become a hero

    You mean Revan? He turned into the dark side because the Sith Emperor forced him into it. Canon before TOR said it was something on Korriban iirc.
    ThacoBell
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,947
    edited April 2017
    There is no canon. Disney erased it, except The Clone Wars, the animated series (and I prefer the comics instead; drat).
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    rede9 said:

    There is no canon. Disney erased it, except The Clone Wars, the animated series (and I prefer the comics instead; drat).

    Theres also Rebels and a bunch of new novels.
    rede9
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Kreia was right about some things, wrong about a lot more. I really like Star Wars, but a lot of the hypocrisy and self righteous attitudes of the Jedi order NEEDED to be deconstructed.
    CrevsDaak
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited April 2017
    rede9 said:

    There is no canon. Disney erased it, except The Clone Wars, the animated series (and I prefer the comics instead; drat).

    I know, but it's not like I care about what Disney says is canon when talking about a topic that is purely EU/Legends.
    ThacoBell said:

    Kreia was right about some things, wrong about a lot more. I really like Star Wars, but a lot of the hypocrisy and self righteous attitudes of the Jedi order NEEDED to be deconstructed.

    Kreia basically does the cleanup after the Jedi Civil War Padawan Massacre (aka the most self-righteous and hypocrite act the Jedi Order's ever done... Even if it wasn't the entire Order).

    Edit: I always mistake the name of those two, dammit.
    ThacoBell
  • TheElfTheElf Member Posts: 798
    The most annoying thing was that she was Melissan 2.0 imo. You know the entire time you'll curse her sudden but inevitable betrayal at the end, but there's no option for your character to express this.
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    TheElf said:

    The most annoying thing was that she was Melissan 2.0 imo. You know the entire time you'll curse her sudden but inevitable betrayal at the end, but there's no option for your character to express this.

    She is actually based on Ravel from Torment.
    CrevsDaakThacoBell
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    chris said she was if ravel was a party member. and thee don't hide the fact she is evil you know she is it's the player character thats shocked.
    ShapiroKeatsDarkMageCrevsDaakThacoBell
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    chris said she was if ravel was a party member. and thee don't hide the fact she is evil you know she is it's the player character thats shocked.

    Again, as with Mellisan, a player character with an Int or Wis of 18 or more should not have been shocked, or even remotely surprised. If the player can see it coming a supersmart superwise character should see it even sooner.
    ShapiroKeatsDarkMageCrevsDaak
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Kreia isn't anything like Melissan in my opinion. Media is straight forward evil/dark side pretty much from the start, just presenting her evil in a way that makes it seem rational and attempting to sway the protagonist to her side.

    Melissan on the other hand is, despite it being pretty obvious that she is a villain to anyone with some savviness, written as super goodly and innocent and the plot is structured to force us to go believe and go along with it.

    Kreia is pretty much the opposite of that. You can challenge her beliefs as they come up, and you don't have to take her lectures to heart. In the end, her plot twist isn't supposed to be as much a "OMG SHE'S EVIL?!" twist as just a reveal of just how involved she was at the heart of it all.
    ThacoBellCrevsDaakAyiekie
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    "Honesty" is not a justification for the game not letting you shove Kreia out of an airlock.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited April 2017
    Fardragon said:

    "Honesty" is not a justification for the game not letting you shove Kreia out of an airlock.

    I don't know what kind of game you thought you were playing, but RPGs don't tend to work that way. There are any number of characters you might not like who end up playing a part in the story, whether it's Imoen, Alistair, Bastila, Dawn Star, whatever. The game doesn't have to provide justification for the player to not participate in the story.
    ThacoBellCrevsDaak
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    shawne said:

    @scriver has it: Kreia explicitly refers to Darth Sion as her student at the very beginning of the game. There's no deception here. The reason she's popular among fans of KOTOR2 is because she does call out a lot of the simple-minded bullshit Lucas built the whole Jedi/Sith conflict on - that doesn't mean Avellone wrote her in such a way that he expects you to agree with her. After all, her own solution is just as misguided, and even if you're playing a pure darksider you can still call her out on that.

    The simple minded bullshit only applies to the movies and to Lucas limited writing talent (i do think that A New Hope was successful because It came out in a era where most american sci-fi movies were dark, gritty and slow paced).

    Theres plenty of dark and ambyguos star wars stories. Even the Clone Wars cgi cartoon has Pretty intense episodes, like the One where Captain Rex had to deal with a crooked Jedi Who was sending his men into Death traps.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited April 2017
    You've got it backwards: those stories exist because of games like KOTOR2 and writers like Avellone and Zahn pushing the envelope in terms of how deep and complex SW stories could potentially be.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Zahn isn't deep. He is just good, and understands Star Wars.

    Avellone is deep, but hates Star Wars.
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,947
    Fardragon said:

    Zahn isn't deep. He is just good, and understands Star Wars.

    I prefer Kevin J. Anderson.

    Noobacca[Deleted User]
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited April 2017
    Fardragon said:

    Zahn isn't deep. He is just good, and understands Star Wars.

    Avellone is deep, but hates Star Wars.

    Whether they hate Star Wars or sleep with a Han Solo body pillow is completely irrelevant. In their respective ways, they challenged some of the dumber aspects of the canon and that's why they're still held in high regard by fandom. There's a reason KOTOR survived the Disney wipe where absolutely nothing from Kevin J. Anderson did, and why they later went out of their way to reintroduce Thrawn.
    CrevsDaak
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    shawne said:

    Fardragon said:

    Zahn isn't deep. He is just good, and understands Star Wars.

    Avellone is deep, but hates Star Wars.

    Whether they hate Star Wars or sleep with a Han Solo body pillow is completely irrelevant. In their respective ways, they challenged some of the dumber aspects of the canon and that's why they're still held in high regard by fandom. There's a reason KOTOR survived the Disney wipe where absolutely nothing from Kevin J. Anderson did, and why they later went out of their way to reintroduce Thrawn.
    I thought KOTOR became part of the non-canon ''legends''
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    shawne said:

    I thought KOTOR became part of the non-canon ''legends''

    Malachor V - and a Holocron voice that was very strongly implied to be Kreia - appeared at the end of the previous season of Rebels.
    Didn't knew that. o_0
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    In a post-finale interview, Dave Filoni (Rebels showrunner) basically described the female voice of the Sith Holocron as an ancient, powerful Sith Lord who built the Malachor Temple and the superweapon discovered within. He also said he couldn't name her openly because they were still sorting out behind-the-scenes stuff (my guess, figuring out KOTOR2's rights division with Obsidian, LucasArts, Disney, etc.) Add that to the way Nika Futterman performed the voice, and it's pretty clearly meant to be Darth Traya.



    CrevsDaakNoobacca
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    shawne said:

    Fardragon said:

    Zahn isn't deep. He is just good, and understands Star Wars.

    Avellone is deep, but hates Star Wars.

    Whether they hate Star Wars or sleep with a Han Solo body pillow is completely irrelevant. In their respective ways, they challenged some of the dumber aspects of the canon and that's why they're still held in high regard by fandom. There's a reason KOTOR survived the Disney wipe where absolutely nothing from Kevin J. Anderson did, and why they later went out of their way to reintroduce Thrawn.
    I thought KOTOR became part of the non-canon ''legends''
    The reason they called them "legends" is that they aren't saying "those things never happened" they are saying "they may or may not have happened, or they might have happened but in a different way in a different time and place".

    Leaving them free to re-use any of the old canon that they like.
    Noobacca
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Fardragon said:

    The reason they called them "legends" is that they aren't saying "those things never happened" they are saying "they may or may not have happened, or they might have happened but in a different way in a different time and place".

    Leaving them free to re-use any of the old canon that they like.

    That was just lip service to keep the hardcore fans from going completely berserk. In practice, the content they're putting out since the reboot explicitly overwrites the old EU - it's Ben Solo, not Jaina and Jacen. It's the First Order, not the Imperial Remnant. It's Rae Sloane, not Natasi Daala. Mara Jade isn't going to be turning up any time soon. As far as I know, there are only three instances of EU content coming through: the Nightsisters (but not the other Witches of Dathomir), Malachor V, and now Thrawn.
    CrevsDaakThacoBellNoobaccaIsewein
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 400
    edited April 2017
    I dunno, maybe I'm a big dummy, but going into Kotor 2, particularly as a teenager at the time, I didn't really see Kreia going *as far* as she does coming. If you're a hardcore light-sider, and you're familiarish with Star Wars lore at the time, you can sure tell that she's far from perfect, but you already had Jolee Bindo in the first game to demonstrate that it was plenty possible to be pretty far from the scion of jedi perfection, but still be a functional jedi.

    The problem with writing ultra-light side characters in the canon of the time is that they just aren't very interesting characters. They're un-emotional automatons and the only drama or struggle is fighting the BBEG or temptations, that's why they tend to operate in a crew where the characters around them are the far more interesting characters (or the subject of their own works entirely - it'd be interesting to see how many books focus on jedis being jedis vs. say bounty hunters and rogue-ish characters). Avellone admitted that he read *tons* of Star Wars books and material prior to writing Kotor 2, as did other members of the team, and I'm sure they had run through that gauntlet too. What Star Wars literature I was drawn to as a kid almost never focused on jedi. I was all about the non-jedi types and bounty hunters and so on.

    I hardly see a hatred of Star Wars in it - you wouldn't read as much about Star Wars as they did if you simply despised it, and the criticisms that different characters, Kreia included, level against Jedi ideology aren't the ham-fisted caricatures that somebody simply motivated by distaste would write. Not to mention that it *is* an option to reject her ideas completely or to argue with her from the perspective of a hardcore jedi fanatic. She won't like it, but the objective of the game is not to make Kreia happy. Although purposefully playing to please her does make for a rather interesting play-through and I would recommend trying it if you've not.

    The reason Kotor 2 has held on as long as it has, especially with the additional fan-patch content, is that it's a star wars game with a lot more malleability than its predecessor. In Kotor 1 you're *really* forced into either playing a die-hard light-sider (or something very close to that), or a psychopath. There isn't a lot of room from gray or alternative behaviors. Kotor 2 lets you play around with things a lot more heavily and that's freeing in its own way.

    I've maintained that the first Kotor game is a lot more like a Star Wars film (at least the ones I've seen - I haven't seen that new standalone) whereas Kotor 2 is more of a ball of clay that you can mold into what you like and play around with established canon more, but it would be a very strange film lol. It also stands out to me because you can take a dark-side path that *feels* somewhat reasonable, as opposed to Kotor 1's murderous psychopath being the only real dark-side option.



    CrevsDaakThacoBellIsewein
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited April 2017
    shawne said:

    Fardragon said:

    The reason they called them "legends" is that they aren't saying "those things never happened" they are saying "they may or may not have happened, or they might have happened but in a different way in a different time and place".

    Leaving them free to re-use any of the old canon that they like.

    That was just lip service to keep the hardcore fans from going completely berserk. In practice, the content they're putting out since the reboot explicitly overwrites the old EU - it's Ben Solo, not Jaina and Jacen. It's the First Order, not the Imperial Remnant. It's Rae Sloane, not Natasi Daala. Mara Jade isn't going to be turning up any time soon. As far as I know, there are only three instances of EU content coming through: the Nightsisters (but not the other Witches of Dathomir), Malachor V, and now Thrawn.
    It's more a case of "we like some of the stuff (not much of it) and we reserve the right to recycle it". So someone at Disney likes KotOR2 more than I do.

    The Nightsisters where in the Clone Wars before the continuity reboot, along with a few other bits and bobs of the old EU, which automatically makes them part of the new continuity.

    NB, there are rumours of some kind of KotOR reboot at Bioware, which would in theory make it part of the new timeline.
    CrevsDaakShapiroKeatsDarkMage
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Judging by the trailer, I think Luke has been listening to Kreia....
    megamike15
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    Fardragon said:

    Judging by the trailer, I think Luke has been listening to Kreia....

    Lol! I thought the same thing. Kreia fanboys are Pretty Happy right Now.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    This thread actually inspired me to do another run of KOTOR2. Kreia really hates my light side guardian :D
    ShapiroKeatsDarkMageCrevsDaak
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    ThacoBell said:

    This thread actually inspired me to do another run of KOTOR2. Kreia really hates my light side guardian :D

    I'm glad my topico inspired you.
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