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Dialogs Stats Checks Analysis

I was curious about what would be the optimal statistics points spread to succeed with most checks. So, I used this wonderful tool that is WeiDU to scan all dialog files. I extracted the relevant data and filtered it with Excel.

Methodology:
I extracted response triggers from dialogs.
Then I kept all checks that check greater values (CheckStatGT). Lower values checks are often used for intervals which is why I deemed them non-relevant.
Some checks check two statistics. I didn't find a way to account for them properly so I had to exclude them from the analysis. They weren't numerous (19) and didn't require high scores so I think the data is still relevant.
I also removed duplicates. Weirdly, there are a great number of them and I don't see what they do besides occupying more space.
All numbers you see in charts and tables are greater than requirements, so add 1 to get the score needed.

First, a chart that shows the proportion of checks for each statistics.


Unsurprisingly, intellectual statistics are the most important ones when it comes to dialog checks. Less expected though, Intelligence account for almost 40% of the total (188/489)!
Then come Charisma and Wisdom, almost equal in importance, but about 2 times less than Intelligence (~20%)!

Let's say there isn't much left for physical statistics! Only 80 checks out of 489, which is about 15%.
Stength goes first in importance, followed closely by Dexterity. Constitution comes last with only 3 checks which makes Constitution the worst attribute in the game from that perspective!

Oddly, even Resist Fire, which I guess no one expected has more checks (6)!
There are also several but very few Thieving Skills checks.

So, as far as dialog checks are concerned, the order of importance is:
1) Intelligence
2) Charisma & Wisdom
3) Strength & Dexterity
4) Everything else (which I won't cover further unless you insist)

Given that we can really increase two or three statistics at character creation, it's also important to know the values of checks.

Here is the proportion of Intelligence checks by score:


As you can see, 169 out of 188 checks (~90%) need no more than 16 Intelligence. So, that's the score you should aim for in the beginning.

The checks that need higher Intelligence are those:
RES		STA	VAL
DCGBODY INT 20
DINCAR1 INT 20
DTRANS INT 20
CIRCLEZ INT 17
DCIRCLEZ INT 17
DDOLORA INT 17
DFHJULL INT 17
DNORDOM INT 17
DPUZSKEL INT 17
DRIDSKEL INT 17
DXACH INT 17
DADAHN INT 16
DCASSIUS INT 16
DINCAR3 INT 16
DRAVEL INT 16
DRKCHSR2 INT 16
RES is the dialog resource. If you remove the initial 'D' you get a creature resource/name that should tell you when to expect the check.

Now, on to Charisma:


Again, 16 Charisma seems to be the sweet spot (101/108 ~90%).

Checks that need more:
RES	STA	VAL
DNORDOM CHR 24
DTRANS CHR 23
DVHAIL CHR 20
DPILLAR CHR 17
DXACH CHR 16
Wisdom:


Again, same conclusion! A Wisdom of 16 gets you 90 checks out of 102 (~90%). The developers made a nice job harmonizing the statistics requirements!

Higher requirements checks:
RES	STA	VAL
DTRANS WIS 23
DINCAR1 WIS 20
DDAKKON WIS 18
DNORDOM WIS 17
DVHAIL WIS 17
DADAHN WIS 16
DFHJULL WIS 16
DTRIAS WIS 16
Strength:


Same here, 16 Strength is enough (30/32)!
RES	STA	VAL
DINCAR2 STR 20
DNORDOM STR 16
Dexterity:


There needed to be an exception, here it is! A score of 18 will get you 5 more checks out of 45 (~10%). But a Dexterity of 16 will already net you 38 out of 45 checks (~85%). It's up to you to choose what you prefer!

You can use this table to decide:
RES		STA	VAL
DNABAT DEX 18
DANNAH DEX 17
DCARVER DEX 17
DELI DEX 17
DR_BONE DEX 17
DNORDOM DEX 16
DARMOIRE DEX 15
So, what is my recommandation for starting statistics scores?
First, I would max out Wisdom to 18 (+9) mainly for the XP bonus. Increase it to 19 with my first point on level 4 if I plan to use the Gordian Knot.
Then, I would pump up Intelligence to 16 (+7).
Finally, I'd put the remaining points in Charisma to 14 (+5). It's the first attribute that gets increased by 2 so I would use a +2 Tattoo for it until then.

If I need say Strength right away to benefit from Fighter specialization and go from a score of 18 to 19, I'd sacrifice some Wisdom and Intelligence. Score needs to be 18 before leveling up to the specialization level.
If I want to get 19 Strength at level 7 then Strength needs to be 15 (+6) at start. So Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma would be set to 14 (+15). I would use a +2 Tattoo for each of these.

To finish, some trivia:
Some checks, refer to The Nameless One not as 'Protagonist', but as 'Player1', which is the same since he always occupies the first slot. A weird variation that you can find in DAOLA, DPHINEAS and DXACH dialog files.
AndreaColombomement0DoubledimastaclanePibaroronaldoTeflonsmeagolheartJuliusBorisovPekingduckmanSethDavisPugPugWatchForWolvesLorandarkaguanadustbubsy

Comments

  • mement0mement0 Member Posts: 101
    Thank you for this.
    So, it seems Intelligence is THE attribute of the game and not Wisdom, at least in terms of check frequency. Would you say that this is also the case in terms of check importance?
    Abel
  • QueegonQueegon Member Posts: 285
    edited April 16
    mement0 said:

    Thank you for this.
    So, it seems Intelligence is THE attribute of the game and not Wisdom, at least in terms of check frequency. Would you say that this is also the case in terms of check importance?

    I'd say yes as far as dialogue goes.
    For everything else there's wisdom for the static extra XP %, extra XP from memories and luck bonuses (+1 at 15,+2 at 18, +3 at 25). I did a playthrough of chaotic evil thief (WIS, STR, DEX) with INT 11 (incl. -2 for spider bracelet and ravel's kiss tattoo) and low CHA. Wasn't very nice in terms of dialogue options and had to use cranium rat charms every now and then.
    Post edited by Queegon on
    Abelmement0
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 306
    edited April 16
    The hardest part to optimize is what stats to start with - since there are a lot of free points floating around out there and it's hard to tell *when* the higher checks come. It takes a bit of planning, you can also, rather cheaply, really buff one of the non-martial stats by +4 fairly early on (2 +1's and a +2) without it breaking your bank.

    Mages get an out because they can buff one mental stat by +4 with tats very early on, and can buff their charisma fairly simply with friends - the trick is in knowing when you need to use the friends spell to begin with (besides just getting good prices lol).

    I could be totally wrong on this, but the first CHA check that is exclusively CHA that requires 16 CHA is if one wants to find a certain portal in the Dead Nations via charming one of the characters there, so you've got some time to buff up CHA by other means until then - you should have at least 3-5 level up related points by then


    As far as INT goes

    IIRC, the highest check prior to Carceri is 19, so you can skimp on your INT for a while too, the first high check, is again in the dead nations if I'm not incorrect, and you need 18 - but there are other means of accomplishing that particular quest with only 16 INT you could also just eat some charms, but that is the same trap as the friends spell because you would need to know in advance when to eat it
    Abelmement0
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 706
    @mement0 I really have no idea. There's no good method to check what the final effects of these checks are. Sometimes, they just open up new dialogs that may lead to rewards. But trying to follow the intricacies of dialog trees would take some time to code.

    As @Gallenger says, now, it would be interesting to know exactly when each check occurs. Especially the highest ones. You'll find the Excel document I used attached to this post. Maybe you can make better use of the data than I.
    mement0
  • karl_maulderkarl_maulder Member Posts: 90
    edited April 17
    As you said, pumping up Wisdom to 18, and allocate your first stat Point at level 4 to wisdom, for a total of 19 seems best, if you're metagaming. And if you are planning to play as a mage, then i would probably dump both charisma and strength, as you can easily boost these stats through spells. Con and Dex can't however, so these would probably be more valuable.

    Personally, i would go 18 Wis, 16 int, and 13 dex and 10 Con.
    mement0Abel
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 306
    edited April 17
    I tend to prefer 9/9/11/14/18/14 - for a mage type TNO

    - if I'm playing a goody goody TNO lol, because at some point you'll get a free CON point and going up to 12 has a noticeable impact on your regeneration, so that helps keep my charm usage down.

    Then on level up I put the PTs into INT. This is because you can usually afford 1-2 intelligence tats almost immediately, so that's +2, then you should gain 1-2 levels fairly quickly (one early in the mortuary) that you can also put into INT, so that'll put you at 18 with the tats. Eventually you'll be able to afford the +2 tat and that'll put you at 19/20 - which is all you need until Carceri IIRC. You'll also, as a mage, get +3 INT naturally through the course of the game which will set you at 21 - which IIRC, is the value of the highest INT check in the game.

    With CHA at 14, you'll need to use the friends spells a few times, and likely won't have the 16 check for the dead nations without the friends spell as well (but it's easier to get a single casting of friends to work - so more magic missiles and pacify :D). But shortly there after, you have the chance to acquire a quest related +2 to CHA, and a +2 CHA tat, which will set you to 18. There are only 4 CHA checks above 18 IIRC in the game. So you're mostly set to roll from there. You may want to invest 2 more points into CHA before it's all said and done, or just meta-game with the friends spell, but if you don't know when to use the spell, at least 1 more point into CHA isn't a bad idea.

    You can also gain an easy +1 to wisdom almost immediately which will net you to 19 WIS with the stat and grabbing a tat to get to 20 or 21 eventually is all you need a +20% to XP is mighty handy lol.



    mement0
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 111
    edited April 17
    Thank you for this information! Here is another source. It's older, but still relevant, I'm sure. And it tells how many times multiple stats are checked at the same time.
    AndreaColombo
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 237
    edited April 17
    It's too bad I didn't learn how to get more weapon proficiencies until after my first game was locked into the Dead Nations quest line - I don't particularly care to pay the jink to get back to the hive early, and since he's got fighter stats he's perfectly suited to hammers. My second isn't as strong but he'll at least get AC and intelligence this time. (First was 16 STR CON WIS, second was 18 WIS 13 DEX INT STR)
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 706
    edited April 19
    @ElysianEchoes Thanks for the link! I see the poster found much more checks which can only mean he counted the LT checks (Charisma is a typical example of how it's used for intervals) in the total and/or duplicates. I don't think it's relevant for the reason mentioned in my first post.
    I think the scope of his research was limited to finding out what was the importance of each caracteristics in checks. Also, he mentions the highest checks, but there's no information on the optimal scores the protagonist should aim for.

    Yes, he mentions multiple statistics checks but I think it's flawed for the same reasons. There are only 19 of these checks as far as I can tell.
    Still, my own analysis has its own flaws, because, for example, it can't differentiate alternative checks. That is, checks that are identified by two separate triggers (for example a STR check and a DEX one) but that have the same result. The data I've posted gives the same value, in a way, to all unique triggers. It doesn't consider their effects (though it postulates there are the same for identical triggers in a same dialog).
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 111
    I definitely love your analysis that a 16 in any stat will give a good 90% success rate with that stat. I'll be taking that in mind when I play next.
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 706
    @ElysianEchoes Yes, I think that's the main point :) !
    Despite the flaws I mentioned, I think it's pretty safe to say that with 16 in INT/WIS/CHA you should not miss out much. I did this so you wouldn't have to worry about what you would have got(ten) were you scores different or what would be needed for each conversation or waste points to pump up each caracteristics to the highest levels.

    If I find some time, I'll do a manual study of the highest checks I mentioned.
    ElysianEchoesLorandar
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 111
    Your service is appreciated, kind sir! :)
    AbelAndreaColombo
  • Xerxes1811Xerxes1811 Member Posts: 54
    This is awesome, I'm going to build a dialog heavy rogue based on your great work! Thanks again.
    AndreaColomboAbel
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