Hexxat and Dorn are the only two Evil characters that I refuse to work with in a Good playthrough, or even Neutral playthrough. I can't figure a good way to justify taking either of them. Dorn is planning on attacking an order of Paladins, which is just grossly stupid for any person not in the deep end of the alignment pool to identify with. Hexxat is introduced by killing the person she suborned to help her, and now she's asking YOU for help. I can't think of any reason I'd believe that I'd not end up drained of blood the next morning, or whenever she gets thirsty again.
Compare these two with the way the other evil characters are introduced: Korgan presents himself as a way-too-bloodthirsty mercenary, but not likely to turn against you for no reason. In the area that he starts in, he demonstrates an utter hatred for slavery. He might not be on the side of the angels of the non-fallen variety, but he could be a decent ally.
Viconia is introduced as a victim of an unfair lynching. It's unclear at the beginning if she's actually evil or not, so she can have the benefit of the doubt, especially if she was taken in BG1 at all. And once you take her, she doesn't have a grand evil plan for the LOLS or because Shar told her too: she's more ruthless about her advice, but it's advice a CHARNAME could ignore.
Edwin is probably the most objectionable of the original cast, as being a Red Wizard of Thay is pretty damning by itself since membership is voluntary. Regardless, if your CHARNAME has no lore knowledge, Edwin's pretty darn palatable to a Neutral CHARNAME and arguably a desperate enough Good one. He's introduced as working under the Shadow Thieves, and he tasks you to 1) kill a Cowled Wizard, who you're not exactly friends with, 2) get some documents from a guy you don't even have to kill (in fact, he advises not killing him), and 3) betray Mae'var BUT there's a significant difference between Edwin and Hexxat's betrayals: you've already set on betraying Mae'var, and he's demonstrably evil and delights in torturing people, whereas Clara is pitiable. I think more characters would not ally with him because of his arrogance, not his wickedness.
Sarevok is an interesting case as well, but you can literally bind him to your service magically. Also, you're actually up against gods and demi-gods, and he seems to know useful things, so what the heck, why not?
I quite honestly think I need one change that'd allow my Neutral or even Good CHARNAMEs to give Hexxat a shot: Hexxat needs to not kill Clara. She's then presented as a possibly tragic character that had to Dominate someone to get more seasoned adventurers to free her, but she's in control enough of herself that she just releases Clara. Yeah, it sucks that Clara lost a couple days of her life, but...
Dorn's entire initial appearance and questline would have to change to be palatable for non-EVIL characters, but that's... kind of fine, I guess, since he's a Blackguard and those make no sense ethically anyways?
Hexxat is SUPER UNPLEASANT. She is openly a serial killer that likes to target young women, but ALSO tries to play everything off like she's the victim. No good or neutral character would ever willingly align with her.
One cool note about party interactions and the EE additions, is that it's finally possible to play a full six evil NPC's in BG2. Originally the best you could was Korgan, Viconia and Edwin. Dorn and Hexxat round that group out to be playable. And hell, a Shaman main character lets that party have access to almost all spells, though it's light on mage.
So you can do a much more evil themed playthrough now.
Hexxat and Dorn are the only two Evil characters that I refuse to work with in a Good playthrough, or even Neutral playthrough. I can't figure a good way to justify taking either of them. Dorn is planning on attacking an order of Paladins, which is just grossly stupid for any person not in the deep end of the alignment pool to identify with.
...
Dorn's entire initial appearance and questline would have to change to be palatable for non-EVIL characters, but that's... kind of fine, I guess, since he's a Blackguard and those make no sense ethically anyways?
On my first play of the EE's I had planned on not taking any of the new characters with me, save maybe Rasaad. The others just sounded bad to me, not fitting in the game at all (both in writing style and quality). But in BG1 Dorn actually surprised me. Like I said, I hadn't planned on bringing him along. But I was playing a more pragmatic, maybe heading towards evil character, and Dorn's powerful entrance made him appealing. You learn he's driven by revenge for a past betrayal, something I/my character could sympathize with. So I took him along, helped him find revenge, it was all fine.
Unfortunately he takes a turn for the worse in BG2 it seems. Haven't played it with him yet, but looking at his questline you go full-on murdering-for-the-hell of it evil by going along. Anyone see anything redeeming in there (besides potentially betraying his patron)?
Hexxat and Dorn are the only two Evil characters that I refuse to work with in a Good playthrough, or even Neutral playthrough. I can't figure a good way to justify taking either of them. Dorn is planning on attacking an order of Paladins, which is just grossly stupid for any person not in the deep end of the alignment pool to identify with.
...
Dorn's entire initial appearance and questline would have to change to be palatable for non-EVIL characters, but that's... kind of fine, I guess, since he's a Blackguard and those make no sense ethically anyways?
Anyone see anything redeeming in there (besides potentially betraying his patron)?
Nope, he's batshit crazy CE to the core. He'll even try to single-handedly take on a whole camp full of paladins and clerics. You honestly can't even realistically RP smart lawful-evil with this guy in your group. Take him along with your evil berserker, Blackguard or barbarian and just go with the flow...
i do like how npcs don't get along. it's something that made alot of these older crpgs more special. now adays it's mostly two party members that don't get along and the rest are fine with each other..
the last time i remember the whole party hating eachother was nwn 2's oc.
Unfortunately he takes a turn for the worse in BG2 it seems. Haven't played it with him yet, but looking at his questline you go full-on murdering-for-the-hell of it evil by going along. Anyone see anything redeeming in there (besides potentially betraying his patron)?
Yes the biggest redeeming quality is that he lets you partake in a quest that is the only way to kill Saemon Haverian. I take him in TOB just for that
I will say that Dorn's ToB companion quest is one of the most memorable and intriguing ones of the new companions. You actually get to storm Lunia (the first layer of Mount Celestia, the LG plane), and there's quite a lot of fun flavour encounters to find (as well as general evil shenanigans you can get up to). It also features a specific combat music that you can't hear anywhere else in the game.
Finally, if your Evil character has also been getting tired of Dorn's general a-holery, there's an opportunity to really screw Dorn over as a final FU to him before he goes hostile and attacks you. Come on, we ALL knew that it was gonna end in bloodshed with that crazy half-orc. :P
Also the Keldorn vs Viconia conflict is overrated.
i completely agree with you on that one, at least if the fight happens at enough high level.
she, an evil cleric, can turn him all day long.
turn and apply a combat buff, repeat next round.
then turn and bash him with a good mace or warhammer (because to do it with FoA is overkilling ) until he is dead.
a paladin has no chance at all against an evil cleric as a blackguard has no chance against you, they should both fall without even being able to land a single hit.
yes, good oriented clerics can turn blackguards and evil ones can turn the good paladins.
the effect is different from the one you get against the undeads, instead of running away or exploding they lay on the ground without doing anything or reacting to your attacks.
i am not sure if neutral clerics can turn paladins, i suppose that they work like the good ones as against the undeads is what they do, but i have not yet tested it.
yes, good oriented clerics can turn blackguards and evil ones can turn the good paladins.
the effect is different from the one you get against the undeads, instead of running away or exploding they lay on the ground without doing anything or reacting to your attacks.
i am not sure if neutral clerics can turn paladins, i suppose that they work like the good ones as against the undeads is what they do, but i have not yet tested it.
Thanks. Just curious, if I had the SCS mod which is supposed to optimize enemies using all their abilities and my main char was a paladin, would Amelyssan use Turn preventing me from attacking? Or does the cleric level have to be significantly higher than the paladin where I could prevent that by being a high enough level?
@Shangeroo
sorry i can not help you on this as i have very little scs experience and also that with a very old version of the mod. i am more an old school guy, tactics mod, soulafein mod (sadly not ported to EE) and so on.
but i am sure that someone of the many guys that play scs has brought a paladin to the final battle and can tell you more.
anyway i don't remember to have read here on in other internet resources about the problem of the final boss or any other ai driven evil cleric turning paladins, nor in vanilla nor with scs. so probably you have not to worry.
between charname paladins and parties with keldorn or mod npc paladins i am sure that a lot of pallies went to the throne.
EDIT: also ai clerics turning paladins would make the class almost not playable in some battles, even if is logic for a high enough cleric to turn paladins maybe a mod that let the evil clerics do so would not be a great idea as balance between classes, almost no one would chose a charname that would be not active in the last game battle.
Comments
Compare these two with the way the other evil characters are introduced: Korgan presents himself as a way-too-bloodthirsty mercenary, but not likely to turn against you for no reason. In the area that he starts in, he demonstrates an utter hatred for slavery. He might not be on the side of the angels of the non-fallen variety, but he could be a decent ally.
Viconia is introduced as a victim of an unfair lynching. It's unclear at the beginning if she's actually evil or not, so she can have the benefit of the doubt, especially if she was taken in BG1 at all. And once you take her, she doesn't have a grand evil plan for the LOLS or because Shar told her too: she's more ruthless about her advice, but it's advice a CHARNAME could ignore.
Edwin is probably the most objectionable of the original cast, as being a Red Wizard of Thay is pretty damning by itself since membership is voluntary. Regardless, if your CHARNAME has no lore knowledge, Edwin's pretty darn palatable to a Neutral CHARNAME and arguably a desperate enough Good one. He's introduced as working under the Shadow Thieves, and he tasks you to 1) kill a Cowled Wizard, who you're not exactly friends with, 2) get some documents from a guy you don't even have to kill (in fact, he advises not killing him), and 3) betray Mae'var BUT there's a significant difference between Edwin and Hexxat's betrayals: you've already set on betraying Mae'var, and he's demonstrably evil and delights in torturing people, whereas Clara is pitiable. I think more characters would not ally with him because of his arrogance, not his wickedness.
Sarevok is an interesting case as well, but you can literally bind him to your service magically. Also, you're actually up against gods and demi-gods, and he seems to know useful things, so what the heck, why not?
I quite honestly think I need one change that'd allow my Neutral or even Good CHARNAMEs to give Hexxat a shot: Hexxat needs to not kill Clara. She's then presented as a possibly tragic character that had to Dominate someone to get more seasoned adventurers to free her, but she's in control enough of herself that she just releases Clara. Yeah, it sucks that Clara lost a couple days of her life, but...
Dorn's entire initial appearance and questline would have to change to be palatable for non-EVIL characters, but that's... kind of fine, I guess, since he's a Blackguard and those make no sense ethically anyways?
So you can do a much more evil themed playthrough now.
On my first play of the EE's I had planned on not taking any of the new characters with me, save maybe Rasaad. The others just sounded bad to me, not fitting in the game at all (both in writing style and quality). But in BG1 Dorn actually surprised me. Like I said, I hadn't planned on bringing him along. But I was playing a more pragmatic, maybe heading towards evil character, and Dorn's powerful entrance made him appealing. You learn he's driven by revenge for a past betrayal, something I/my character could sympathize with. So I took him along, helped him find revenge, it was all fine.
Unfortunately he takes a turn for the worse in BG2 it seems. Haven't played it with him yet, but looking at his questline you go full-on murdering-for-the-hell of it evil by going along. Anyone see anything redeeming in there (besides potentially betraying his patron)?
Nope, he's batshit crazy CE to the core. He'll even try to single-handedly take on a whole camp full of paladins and clerics. You honestly can't even realistically RP smart lawful-evil with this guy in your group. Take him along with your evil berserker, Blackguard or barbarian and just go with the flow...
the last time i remember the whole party hating eachother was nwn 2's oc.
I always wanted to see Cernd fight Nalia. That would be pretty funny.
Also the Keldorn vs Viconia conflict is overrated.
she, an evil cleric, can turn him all day long.
turn and apply a combat buff, repeat next round.
then turn and bash him with a good mace or warhammer (because to do it with FoA is overkilling
a paladin has no chance at all against an evil cleric as a blackguard has no chance against you, they should both fall without even being able to land a single hit.
So can Paladins be turned in this game? I thought only undead could be affected by the turn ability.
the effect is different from the one you get against the undeads, instead of running away or exploding they lay on the ground without doing anything or reacting to your attacks.
i am not sure if neutral clerics can turn paladins, i suppose that they work like the good ones as against the undeads is what they do, but i have not yet tested it.
Thanks. Just curious, if I had the SCS mod which is supposed to optimize enemies using all their abilities and my main char was a paladin, would Amelyssan use Turn preventing me from attacking? Or does the cleric level have to be significantly higher than the paladin where I could prevent that by being a high enough level?
sorry i can not help you on this as i have very little scs experience and also that with a very old version of the mod. i am more an old school guy, tactics mod, soulafein mod (sadly not ported to EE) and so on.
but i am sure that someone of the many guys that play scs has brought a paladin to the final battle and can tell you more.
anyway i don't remember to have read here on in other internet resources about the problem of the final boss or any other ai driven evil cleric turning paladins, nor in vanilla nor with scs. so probably you have not to worry.
between charname paladins and parties with keldorn or mod npc paladins i am sure that a lot of pallies went to the throne.
EDIT: also ai clerics turning paladins would make the class almost not playable in some battles, even if is logic for a high enough cleric to turn paladins maybe a mod that let the evil clerics do so would not be a great idea as balance between classes, almost no one would chose a charname that would be not active in the last game battle.