[Spoilers] What distinguishes "The Art™" from the "power of *Belief*" in PST?

Aquadrizzt

Your conversations with various spellcasters and other entities seem to mix the ways that magic is viewed and I was wondering if anyone with a more keen eye for detail could explain the differences to me.

Mebbeth's quest with Mourns-for-Trees is said to be designed to teach you that belief can change reality, but Mebbeth ultimately teaches you arcane magic (the Art).

On the flip side, Fall-from-Grace explains that her magic comes from belief, and thus it is something that must be learned personally, rather than something like the Art that can be taught.

Taking those two things together, wouldn't it make more sense that Mebbeth taught TNO divine (*belief*) magic rather than arcane (the Art) magic? Or am I missing something?

taclane

I don't think there is anything that necessarily makes the end results different. However, the "belief" mechanic is an extra little wrinkle in the Planescape setting that gives you an alternate path toward the same goal.

You could study the magical arts hard enough to grasp the concepts, or you can believe that you know an thing long enough and fervently enough to simply make it real. It is hard to tell where that line is that differentiates what you can accomplish via belief or magic, but that is part of what makes Planescape what it is.

I sometimes wonder how well PST translates to other languages. I think there was a thread earlier asking for some clarification between the usage of "Belief" vs. "Faith". The language can get a little nuanced when it comes to differentiating words that might normally be seen as synonyms.

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rapsam2003

Really, you have to think of it this way. "Belief powers the Planes". See, the Factions - of which there are 15 by mandate of the Lady of Pain - all believe that if they cause enough folks to believe their way, then they can tip the balance of the Multiverse their way. They all believe in certain tenets. Books like the Factol's Manifesto ( https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-BT_PSB49zNMF83RE9oWVMzTUU ), the Planeswalker's Handbook ( https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-BT_PSB49zNVHBZeFNxVU9KVEU ), & the DM's Guide to Planescape ( https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-BT_PSB49zNekFOaHN0Mm00Vm8 ) all explain how belief works as regards the Planes.
Take the concept of a Gate town. These are towns on the edge of 1 plane and another. An example is Plague-Mort. Its predecessor town, Bladed Reach, was plane-shifted into the Abyss by demons, apparently almost overnight. Belief literally can cause the Planes to shift. Another gate nearby, Broken Reach, was also formerly near Bladed Reach.


In Planescape, belief is more powerful than faith in a deity. The Powers include more than just gods and goddesses. And, in Sigil, which may as well be the center of the Multiverse, the 15 factions bicker and fight and seek converts to their cement their belief system as the best one.

themazingness

In D&D, mages are arcane casters. However, in Planescape everything is basically a function of belief. So I see it as both really. I'm looking forward to others fleshing out this idea though. It's a cool topic!

rapsam2003

themazingness said:

In D&D, mages are arcane casters. However, in Planescape everything is basically a function of belief. So I see it as both really. I'm looking forward to others fleshing out this idea though. It's a cool topic!

Well, kinda. Planescape IS a setting of D&D. Wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, etc. are all valid classes in that setting. Does arcane magic work because the caster believes it to work? Maybe? Depends on how you look at it.
Wizards spend years studying. Sorcerers have the innate ability to do magic, almost as a force of their personality. Warlocks made a deal with a type of Power, such as a demon lord, Archdevil, Archfey, etc., which grants them invocations in return for service.

Maybe the mental ability to cast arcane magic is a type of belief? "I studied and I know this spell, so I have belief it will work"? "I've naturally cast this before"?

themazingness

Well what I mean is I don't see belief-based magic as inherently divine in a world where belief shapes everything. So when TNO becomes a mage, a fighter, a thief, or whatever, that is a function of belief. I would argue the reason Grace can be Lawful Neutral is she believes she isn't evil. The reason Nordom can function is he believes you make him functional. Dak'kon's beliefs limit his powers but your beliefs unlock his powers. He goes as far as calling belief *know*(ing). So while TNO indeed casts arcane magic, I would say he can because he believes he can and Mebbeth believes he can.

I don't see this as contradictory with Grace's statements. To me we are talking about a different dictionary definition of belief. Grace is a divine caster because she believes in herself. But this is more about her magic source. Divine casting usually draws upon a deity. She has learned to draw upon herself. TNO's magic draws upon his learning. But he does have to believe he can do that just like Grace has to believe she can do what she does. So I take her statements as understanding their power sources are different. He would have to believe in himself rather than believe in his ability to learn magic.

rapsam2003

themazingness said:

Well what I mean is I don't see belief-based magic as inherently divine in a world where belief shapes everything. So when TNO becomes a mage, a fighter, a thief, or whatever, that is a function of belief.

I would argue that the TNO becomes whatever the player chooses, because of his past lives. So, memory in essence. His belief probably has a lot to do with accepting that memory as a valid part of his current incarnation, though.

themazingness said:

I would argue the reason Grace can be Lawful Neutral is she believes she isn't evil.

Fall-from-Grace is a bit of an exception. See below.

themazingness said:

The reason Nordom can function is he believes you make him functional.

Nordom is a rogue Modron. Most Modrons are part of a large Lawful, hierarchical society. Rogues are outside of that, for various reasons. They still judge what they're doing to be logical/Lawful, however. So, Nordom believes that aiding the TNO is the logical thing to do and works towards that.

themazingness said:

Dak'kon's beliefs limit his powers but your beliefs unlock his powers. He goes as far as calling belief *know*(ing).

Well, he's a Githzerai. Their cities are literally kept together in the plane of Limbo because their race is united in belief, belief in the teachings of Zerthimon and belief that their strongholds will stay strong.

themazingness said:

So while TNO indeed casts arcane magic, I would say he can because he believes he can and Mebbeth believes he can.

Well, that's part of it. But memory also is a part of it, I think.

themazingness said:

I don't see this as contradictory with Grace's statements. To me we are talking about a different dictionary definition of belief. Grace is a divine caster because she believes in herself. But this is more about her magic source. Divine casting usually draws upon a deity. She has learned to draw upon herself. TNO's magic draws upon his learning. But he does have to believe he can do that just like Grace has to believe she can do what she does. So I take her statements as understanding their power sources are different. He would have to believe in himself rather than believe in his ability to learn magic.

What's interesting is there are people who can literally believe things into existence. The Signers faction does so, mostly through their belief manifesting in psionic powers. There's a subgroup of Doomguard faction members, called the Sign of Zero, who try to believe things out of existence too. And there are Athar who belief in the power of "the Great Unknown", which they profess to be a force or "Power behind the Powers" and cast divine spells despite their defiance of all deities.

The Dustmen, who I mention because TNO starts in the Mortuary, believe in true death, which is a state where you die and don't end up in the Upper or Lower Planes. Most mortals in D&D end up being judged by their Prime World's god of death (like Myrkul or Kelemvor, depending on the timeline, in Faerun). The Dustmen believe, if you purge yourself of all emotion, you can finally die the True Death.
Good Faction resources:
http://www.mimir.net/factions/
http://www.kriegstanz.com/index.html
Factol's Manifesto

Anyway, Fall-from-Grace is what is often called a "Fourth Rule". There's a principle in the setting called "Rule of Three". An exception is called a Fourth Rule or a Fourth Law. See, Planar creatures (like Succubi or other Demons or Devils or Devas or Planetars or Modrons; see link) are bound, generally, to follow their nature. FfG keeps to her nature as a succubus by providing the pleasure of conversation in her unconvential brothel, but she isn't evil. It takes incredible discipline for a Planar creature to be other than good if their race is normally good or other than evil if their race is normally evil or other than neutral if their race is normally neutral. It's a constant choosing to defy their nature. FfG does believe she is neutral, but her actions are judged by the Multiverse to be neutral as well.



Sidenote: I'm a huge Planescape lore-fan, if you can't tell. I actually play on a NWN2 Persistent World called "Sigil: City of Doors". If you love Planescape, I'd recommend you check it out: http://sigil-nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Sigil_NWN2_PW

themazingness

@rapsam2003 I actually tried Sigil:City of doors recently. But most of the time I get errors when I try to connect. I might join again later.

rapsam2003

themazingness said:

@rapsam2003 I actually tried Sigil:City of doors recently. But most of the time I get errors when I try to connect. I might join again later.

Did you download the Client Extension?

dockaboomski

As someone who actually runs Planescape in P&P, I think the difference between magic and belief in the planes is very subtle. Pretty much everything @rapsam2003 said is right, but I think a lot of it is based on the distinction your character makes, since the individual roleplaying aspect is so emphasized in the setting.

themazingness

rapsam2003 said:

themazingness said:

@rapsam2003 I actually tried Sigil:City of doors recently. But most of the time I get errors when I try to connect. I might join again later.

Did you download the Client Extension?

I tried several things but I don't think that. Could you post a link to it?

rapsam2003

themazingness said:

rapsam2003 said:

themazingness said:

@rapsam2003 I actually tried Sigil:City of doors recently. But most of the time I get errors when I try to connect. I might join again later.

Did you download the Client Extension?

I tried several things but I don't think that. Could you post a link to it?

Moving to PMs.

moody_mage

@rapsam2003 I tried there a long time ago, however I had the bad luck of encountering a group of assholes who repeatedly PK my level 1 character on the flimsiest of RP logic.