Swashbuckler question

cbarchuk

Getting ready to try a solo Swashbuckler run. I've been wanting to play one for a long time. That time has finally come! Two questions: I'm currently using Rogue Rebalancing Mod. To anyone that has used it extensively, is the RR version of the Swashbuckler better than the vanilla version in your opinion? 2nd, what's the best race? I was thinking elf. Would love some advice. Thanks.

jsaving

The rogue rebalancing mod is fun but does power up all of the kits to some degree. Best race is half-orc in my view as you can start with 19 strength which is a tremendous help in melee for thieves.

SomeSort

Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't actually played a Rogue Rebalancing Swashbuckler, but based on the readme it seems straight-off worse than the vanilla version.

They replace the +1 THACO for every 5 levels with just letting the Swashbuckler use the Fighter's THACO table. For instance, this amounts to a huge +6 THACO boost for a level 21 Swashbuckler. (+6 is as big as the differential gets; by level 40 the "vanilla" Swashbuckler would only be 2 THACO behind the Rogue Rebalancing Swashbuckler.) This is good.

But for this they straight-out lose their kit damage bonus, which was the strongest selling point of the kit in the first place. And their improved THACO progression doesn't apply to ranged weapons, which makes them suddenly garbage outside of melee.

Rogue Rebalancing leaves the +AC bonus, which was the other main selling point of the kit, but it looks like it takes away Use Any Item, which means Swashbucklers will never get access to Full Plate, Large Shields, and Helmets. Without those the AC bonus becomes less useful, since AC is most valuable when you can stack it, and Swashbucklers can no longer stack it.

(I'm not 100% sure whether thieves lose UAI based on the readme; if they don't, then disregard that last point. Either way, the conclusion remains that I'd prefer a vanilla swashbuckler if given the choice.)

If you're not opposed, I'd also look into installing @subtledoctor's mod to give APR bonuses to all classes on weapon specialization, too. That way Swashbucklers can get up to 1.5 APR, (2.5 when dual-wielding, 3.5 with Belm). An extra half attack may not seem like much, but it's a pretty big deal on a class that's so attack-starved.

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fateless

UAI has been part of rogue's in some form for a while. it was the idea that rogues got their hands on various kinds of items and had close dealings with them enough as well as the nature of various kinds of magics through traps in their larcenous endeavors that they eventually learned ways to make use of things they normally couldn't to add to their bag of tricks.

They are a class that is kind of about circumventing protections and restrictions in some ways afterall.

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fateless

you are right. it is meant to be more about the myriad of useful support magical items, some of which are even class or race restricted. That may be why further iterations of p&p stuff instituted things like armour proficiencies and such to penalize those trying tricks like putting on plate.

Lord_Tansheron

fateless said:

That may be why further iterations of p&p stuff instituted things like armour proficiencies and such to penalize those trying tricks like putting on plate.

Item Revisions does address that to a degree, with things like DEX penalties and movement speed reductions on heavy armor. I see nothing wrong with a UAI Thief donning plate, as long as that comes with consequences. Sure let them try it on if they like, but there ain't gonn' be no thieving with 50 pounds of metal on you.

Quickblade

Lord_Tansheron said:

Item Revisions does address that to a degree, with things like DEX penalties and movement speed reductions on heavy armor. I see nothing wrong with a UAI Thief donning plate, as long as that comes with consequences. Sure let them try it on if they like, but there ain't gonn' be no thieving with 50 pounds of metal on you.

There is when you go to 200 points to overcome the -80% penalty.

Lord_Tansheron

Quickblade said:

There is when you go to 200 points to overcome the -80% penalty.

Also fine in my book. If you're a thief of that level, you could probably pop locks just by glaring at them menacingly. Armor or no armor. I mean we're talking REALLY high level, right. Where mages and clerics are basically demigods walking around. I'm sure a thief can sneak in full plate at that point.

fateless

If strength boosting items weren't all over the place that would supposedly help the issue as well. but it's so easy to pick up a belt of giant strength or something and shove it on and render the strength requirement pointless. As I recall I usually end the game with most or all of my characters sporting superhuman strength either naturally or through magical items. One of my Clerics often ends up with Crom Faeyr for example if my main isn't going to use it. And if I'm playing a fighter as my main it's not hard to enter ToB with a 24-25 strength if I just want to make powergame choices. Rogue's I know can actually top out only 2 or 3 lower if you want to build them that way.

Lord_Tansheron

I guess it's part of the general problem of operating within a rule set that really was not designed for player characters of that high a level. What would a lvl 40 character be in P&P? Divine avatar? Demigod? Millennia-old lich? Or, I guess, an orphan from a library who's been on the road for 2 years. And his friends.

cbarchuk

subtledoctor said:

Yeah but plate mail? Their special abilities should make them better rogues, more roguish - not less. UAI is rooted in the idea that they could come to operate magical devices like rods, wands, and scrolls. It's harder to code, but worth the effort IMHO (I did it in my mod, after all )... it's closer to what makes thieves, thieves.

I completely agree. UAI seems to turn a thief into more of sorcerer than anything. Walking around wielding carsoymr with plate amor seems ridiculous to me. It's probably why don't play ToB much because it forces you to play your thief in a manner that is quite un-thief like. Anyways subtledoctor, I thought most of the tweaks were already added into the EE. Am I wrong on that assumption? At the very least I'll add your tweak which I didn't realize was even removed.

Danacm

I read somewhere that the adnd 2 was balanced to lvl 7-12. As i remember for high level campaigns rulebook, the maximum level was 30, and the next step was divine rank. where you become an npc, because its the game of heroes not gods- as the rulebook stated.

fateless

Divine stuff started kicking in by level 25... sometimes less. It's part of where the idea for the HLA's came from. The game itself was balanced all the way up through about level 15... and the core and earlier books went up to level 20. But people in the level 15-20 range were rare and basically living legend figures in their own right. The kind of people like Eliminster who's mere presence altered the course of history.

7-12 was about the range that most skilled (and possibly aging) Heroes were in or just above. The typical level range of experienced warior kings and Famous adventurers of that or the last particular generation who's names wouldn't necessarily survive the next generation.


I can tell you that 5e is balanced more towards the midlevels however. The lower levels aren't too unbalanced in most terms just from limited abilities. but high levels... balance is questionable.

cbarchuk

Indeed. It's been a number of years since I've played 2nd edition but I know this, I never played any sort of character that was level 20+ as far as I can remember. Now this is computer game of course based somewhat on pnp. But this is probably the reason why in many ways I enjoy BG1 more.

fateless

Lord_Tansheron said:

I guess it's part of the general problem of operating within a rule set that really was not designed for player characters of that high a level. What would a lvl 40 character be in P&P? Divine avatar? Demigod? Millennia-old lich? Or, I guess, an orphan from a library who's been on the road for 2 years. And his friends.

In Truth. A level 40 character (assuming it was even possible) Would be a high God. Think on Par of the unkillable unknowable entities that we have assumptions about like Bahamut and Tiamat where even beating them isn't really beating them and containing them is only at their agreement and may not actually be really containing them.

Aerakar

I have also never liked UAI and consider it a cheap workaround. I would prefer scrapping it and giving thieves Use Magic Scrolls/Read Magic or some such so they can read/use magic scrolls only. This would still be a big power bump and avoid all of the armor/weapon shenanigans mentioned above.

AD&D used to give this ability to thieves at level 10 with some chance of failure that would reduce further each level-up. I would guess this was the thinking behind UMD in later editions.

cbarchuk

Aerakar said:

I have also never liked UAI and consider it a cheap workaround. I would prefer scrapping it and giving thieves Use Magic Scrolls/Read Magic or some such so they can read/use magic scrolls only. This would still be a big power bump and avoid all of the armor/weapon shenanigans mentioned above.

AD&D used to give this ability to thieves at level 10 with some chance of failure that would reduce further each level-up. I would guess this was the thinking behind UMD in later editions.

Yea once my thieves get UAI I don't abuse it. I still want my thieves to play like thieves instead of morphing into something completely different and ridiculous. If I'm playing an assassin then I want to primarily utilize the assassin's abilities to complete the game. If I can't then that is flaw of the game which is quite real I might add. By ToB the game really bottlenecks you into playing a certain way with magic being overly favored. Now at those high levels maybe that can't be helped. I dunno. But as a fan of the thief class I absolutely loathe having to abuse UAI just so I can continue to play my thief at those high levels. I know several folks have soloed all the way through the series with a thief. Though impressive, the shenanigans that HAD to be used is absurd to me.