Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit www.planescape.com to purchase and check for details. Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition Official Soundtrack is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Questions about Paladins

124

Comments

  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 337
    I think that ThacoBell may have found a cunning plan to end this thread by luring other posters into the TV Tropes vortex, from which they will emerged bedraggled and confused as to what they meant to do an hour ago.

    Having said that choosing a trope for a new character, or a figure to model from history/ legend such as Lancelot, will probably be more productive than trying to apply the alignment system with any rigour. I'm perfectly happy to play a flawed character myself...
    ThacoBellSkatan
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    Lancelot is probably a bad choice. He's flawed in some horrible ways himself while Arthur is similar to Keldorn and In some ways worse. Galahad is actually more pointed to in some sources as the Epitome of Paladin Standards.
    ThacoBellDreadKhan
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 921
    ThacoBell said:

    Well yeah, he IS hypocritical about several things.

    Unlike real people. :*

    ThacoBell
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,354
    edited July 6
    I agree that it is perfectly sensible to be wary of a Drow who's not only a Drow, but also a servant of Shar. I understand why someone like Keldorn wouldn't give her the benefit of the doubt.

    But the situation is that there's a bunch of people, led by servants of Beshaba, who is also an evil goddess with an agenda of corruption and destruction, carrying out an unlawful execution that also happens to be completely barbaric.

    There are many solutions for catching a Drow stolling around Athkatla which are way more adequate and suitable for good people: capturing and interrogating her to make sure she's not some sort of infiltrated agent. Banishing her before she causes any trouble. Hell, even if you're going to make the case that any Drow is too dangerous to be allowed to roam freely, there are methods of execution that don't involve something as vicious as burning someone alive.

    I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that being OK with burning people at the stake, no matter who it is, is not a very Paladin-like thing to do.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023
    fateless said:

    there is a lot in that write up that doesn't necessarily have to be evil. Have you considered that part of the reason that she only has one consistant ally is because it's another ally that values secrets as much as the Goddess of Secrets? There isn't a single official god of Secrets that I can think of that isn't Evil and there isn't ever really given a good reason for it. Secrets in my mind seem to be right in line with a Drow that has come to the surface and been persecuted at every turn. Not a reason to prove that she's the epitomy of evil compared to other evil people around her.

    One thing you nicely left out of the writeup is the belief some have that Shar is simply a second side to Sune, her twin that came into being at the same time, and that they are in fact two facets of the same Goddess.

    There's also the issue that begs one to question. What does the so called mass murder and torture actually have to do with Shar's portfolio? What does it actually serve to do for her? Not actually a whole lot. The shadow weave was created to break Mystra's iron control over magic.

    That same group that preaches Shar being a second side to Sune was a setup by Alorgoth to draw out his enemies and those he saw as "weak" for easy tortuing/killing. The mass murder and torture is relevant to Shar because it is CONSISTENTLY PERPETRATED BY HER WORSHIPPERS. Don't forget evil is a quantifiable force in the forgotten realms, alignment actually means something and cannot be ignored.

    @Kilivitz Faerun is roughly a medieval analogue as far as technology is concerned is you aren't a mage. Any execution method is going to be horrific. Ironically, being burned is probably the cleanest way to do it. No blood or viscera to clean up.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    There are far more ways to be evil than simply mass murder and torture. Even in a realm where it's a quantifiable factor. So no. That's still a fail that doesn't push her agendas. It's in the realm of stupid-evil, the ever overlooked evil counterpart to lawful-stupid. A goddess of secrets should be anything but stupid even if she's evil.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023
    fateless said:

    There are far more ways to be evil than simply mass murder and torture. Even in a realm where it's a quantifiable factor. So no. That's still a fail that doesn't push her agendas. It's in the realm of stupid-evil, the ever overlooked evil counterpart to lawful-stupid. A goddess of secrets should be anything but stupid even if she's evil.

    That doesn't change the fact that her worshippers consistently engage in such acts, and since they still get to use her granted abilities, she clearly approves of it. Revisionist arguments can only cover so much.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    She doesn't have to approve or disapprove of it for people to do such things in her name. And the dev's don't have anybody that loses their Divine powers granted by gods even when some of them should. Anomen included depending on which way you affect his alignment. (Chaotic neutral is completely contrary to anything Helm would accept).

    So you could have a goddess that is somewhat indifferent to murder even though it's not her aim or goal. Might be ok with it to help keep secrets from time to time as a viable tool. Getting blamed for not taking powers away as somehow sanctioning it when it's not a matter that she feels necessary to weigh in on. On top of being inside a game where loss of divine power by priests doesn't really exist.

    otherwise the couple of times you deal with followers of Shar might actually find a few of them losing their powers for being too damned open about a few things or causing mass murders which may reveal secrets because it draws investigation.

    Granted the only connection of Shar that comes to mind right off the bat for me involves Rasaad and I haven't played through all of that. I just know they are involved and Viconia gets fairly pissed if you take her along. So it could be another case of portraying stupid-evil to get across the point of evil and nothing more. I can't say for certain.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023
    @fateless "So you could have a goddess that is somewhat indifferent to murder even though it's not her aim or goal." This alone would cement Shar and her worshippers as firmly evil and not excusable.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    Actually. Several neutral gods are also fairly indifferent to murder.

    Helm for example doesn't care if people are murdered. He only cares that the murders conform to the letter of the law. Torm as I recall is just about as bad. Mystra supposedly only really cares about her magic and still allows magic to work for necromancer cults and Liches just as much as anybody else. Most nature gods consider death just a part of the cycle and that if it happens to be at the hands of another living entity than so be it. This is part of how the Shadow Druids keep functioning like they do even though they are fairly murderous in their intents to take nature back from civilization. By blood if necessary.
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 337
    fateless said:

    Lancelot is probably a bad choice. He's flawed in some horrible ways himself while Arthur is similar to Keldorn and In some ways worse. Galahad is actually more pointed to in some sources as the Epitome of Paladin Standards.

    I thought of Galahad too of course, but he almost seems less of a character and more of an archetype because he is just that damn perfect. For an rpg game I suppose that having imperfect npcs like Keldorn who have problems that need solving can be a way to increase player engagement.

    Artona
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023
    fateless said:

    Actually. Several neutral gods are also fairly indifferent to murder.

    Helm for example doesn't care if people are murdered. He only cares that the murders conform to the letter of the law. Torm as I recall is just about as bad. Mystra supposedly only really cares about her magic and still allows magic to work for necromancer cults and Liches just as much as anybody else. Most nature gods consider death just a part of the cycle and that if it happens to be at the hands of another living entity than so be it. This is part of how the Shadow Druids keep functioning like they do even though they are fairly murderous in their intents to take nature back from civilization. By blood if necessary.

    Murder and lawful killing are not the same. Someone being convicted of the death penalty (Helm and Tyr) and someone flipping out and stabbing their neighbor (Shar) are false equivalences. The Shadow Druids are a splinter qroup, considered extremists by the rest of the druid community. Thanks for using examples that enforce my argument, I appreciate it ;)
    Artona
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    Mantis37 said:

    I thought of Galahad too of course, but he almost seems less of a character and more of an archetype because he is just that damn perfect. For an rpg game I suppose that having imperfect npcs like Keldorn who have problems that need solving can be a way to increase player engagement.

    In some ways he is the archetype. But he is the better example. In some ways Lancelot wasn't even a good knight. He was just an unbeatable fighter and events played into his hands.
    ThacoBell said:

    Murder and lawful killing are not the same. Someone being convicted of the death penalty (Helm and Tyr) and someone flipping out and stabbing their neighbor (Shar) are false equivalences. The Shadow Druids are a splinter qroup, considered extremists by the rest of the druid community. Thanks for using examples that enforce my argument, I appreciate it ;)

    Helm doesn't care if they have actually been tried in court. Just that it fits the letter of the law. Tyr on the other hand being a god of Justice actually cares a lot about the circumstances of causing anothers death.

    And the other mortal druids may call them extremists but those are mortals. The gods aren't quite as telling and picky on the subject and still give them magic on their devotion to nature. Splinter group and radicals or not.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023
    @Fateless yes the "letter of that law", like I said, lawful execution and murder are two different things.I believe the shadow druids follow a different deity than the rest, so again, its not the same.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,329
    fateless said:

    there is a lot in that write up that doesn't necessarily have to be evil. Have you considered that part of the reason that she only has one consistant ally is because it's another ally that values secrets as much as the Goddess of Secrets? There isn't a single official god of Secrets that I can think of that isn't Evil and there isn't ever really given a good reason for it. Secrets in my mind seem to be right in line with a Drow that has come to the surface and been persecuted at every turn. Not a reason to prove that she's the epitomy of evil compared to other evil people around her.

    One thing you nicely left out of the writeup is the belief some have that Shar is simply a second side to Sune, her twin that came into being at the same time, and that they are in fact two facets of the same Goddess.

    There's also the issue that begs one to question. What does the so called mass murder and torture actually have to do with Shar's portfolio? What does it actually serve to do for her? Not actually a whole lot. The shadow weave was created to break Mystra's iron control over magic.

    A lot of people should read up more on Shar. Her sister goddess is Selune, not Sune. Selune represents light in the darkness. Shar wants her dead. She also wants the complete destruction of the Universe, and all light in it. Complete darkness, and eventually the cessation of existence. Her worshipers actively work to help her achieve that goal. These are not nice people. They are eeee-viiil.

    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shar

    Also, that "Draco in Leather Pants" trope really made sense to me. I've always wondered why drow fans are so into Viconia and drow in general. That trope explains it perfectly for me. And Viconia's character arc is written to play into the trope. Pure fan service.

    Also, this discussion has gotten away from talking about paladins in general. Everybody got fixated on the one Keldorn vs. Viconia issue.
    ThacoBellDreadKhanArtona
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    I've been having to write sune repeatedly for something else. you try to remember to add a couple letters when writing a goddess name after dealing with the other, particularly considering they are within the same damned pantheon for the same campaign realm.

    Also your nice little link there points out what I had been saying about how Shar and her followers prefer subversive and careful tactics and not simple mass murder. She's not actually after the cessation of existence and that page doesn't say that she is.

    She helped create life and life existed even before Chantea and others got involved and pushed for the need for life to thrive which caused the rift between Shar and her Sister. She just doesn't feel the need for life to be this overwhelming thriving force that it has become. There is a difference.

    Part of that write up also shows the sloppy transitions between editions as the Shadow Plane became the ShadowFell as people felt the need to connect the new edition to what happened in the old. The ShadowFell is not devoid of life. It's just life on different terms.
    batoor
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 509
    edited July 8

    fateless said:

    there is a lot in that write up that doesn't necessarily have to be evil. Have you considered that part of the reason that she only has one consistant ally is because it's another ally that values secrets as much as the Goddess of Secrets? There isn't a single official god of Secrets that I can think of that isn't Evil and there isn't ever really given a good reason for it. Secrets in my mind seem to be right in line with a Drow that has come to the surface and been persecuted at every turn. Not a reason to prove that she's the epitomy of evil compared to other evil people around her.

    One thing you nicely left out of the writeup is the belief some have that Shar is simply a second side to Sune, her twin that came into being at the same time, and that they are in fact two facets of the same Goddess.

    There's also the issue that begs one to question. What does the so called mass murder and torture actually have to do with Shar's portfolio? What does it actually serve to do for her? Not actually a whole lot. The shadow weave was created to break Mystra's iron control over magic.

    A lot of people should read up more on Shar. Her sister goddess is Selune, not Sune. Selune represents light in the darkness. Shar wants her dead. She also wants the complete destruction of the Universe, and all light in it. Complete darkness, and eventually the cessation of existence. Her worshipers actively work to help her achieve that goal. These are not nice people. They are eeee-viiil.

    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shar

    Also, that "Draco in Leather Pants" trope really made sense to me. I've always wondered why drow fans are so into Viconia and drow in general. That trope explains it perfectly for me. And Viconia's character arc is written to play into the trope. Pure fan service.

    Also, this discussion has gotten away from talking about paladins in general. Everybody got fixated on the one Keldorn vs. Viconia issue.
    Yes the entire thing has been derailed a bit, but honestly as far as Shar goes...There's no clear outline that Viconia is being tried for worshipping Shar either. The only point at which she mentions shar is moments before they are about to light the fire. The mob itself makes no mention of that, their justification is that she's a drow. As for government sanction, well that is up in the air and could probably have been explored in-game..Viconia does lack a personal quest after all. Oh well..

    I always interpreted Viconias worship of Shar as more of a replacement for Lolth and to help her tolerate the sunlight a lot better.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023
    @fateless Yes, there is far too much life, better kill most of it off. Totally a good deity ;)
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    edited July 8
    ThacoBell said:

    @fateless Yes, there is far too much life, better kill most of it off. Totally a good deity ;)

    I never said she was good. I just said she's not entirely evil. And killing off most of it is still something that is being attributed to her but it's not really with a basis. The underdark and races driven into it because of race wars and other things actually proves in a lot of ways the resilience of life even in the shadows and the dark. And I've never claimed she was good. But there is definitely a lot worse and people tend to forget that or attribute things to her to make her seem worse than she is.

    Certain other gods tend to be made out to be more good than they are too. Not just by the playerbase but by various authors and other sources as well.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023
    @fateless "Certain other gods tend to be made out to be more good than they are too. Not just by the playerbase but by various authors and other sources as well."

    Okay, then they are wrong too. The point?

    "Not as evil"? ha, okay. I'll remember that the next time I run across Dark Moon monks torturing apprentices in the name of Shar. "Help us charname!" "No, you guys are fine, Shar isn't THAT evil. Its just a little torture and murder. You'll be fine."
    DreadKhanArtona
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    edited July 9
    Thaco that would mean darkmoon monks are perhaps being portrayed wrong wouldn't it?

    maybe instead you should tell them they are being stupid-evil and to get out of your game with that tripe.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023
    Or maybe the evil goddess Shar is actually just that evil. Based the info we are given, this seems the more rational answer.
    BelgarathMTHMirandelArtonaDreadKhan
  • RedWizardRedWizard Member Posts: 225
    There are different orders of paladins usually focused on different deities.
    A paladin of Ilmater for example might be way more inclined to actually seek the redemption of a foe.
    Meanwhile a paladin of Tyr tends to be rather smite happy no questions asked.
    Drows are viewed as boogeyman by surfacers and treated just liked monster races.
    Take Deekin from NWN for example, the concept of a friendly, cute kobold is nice and all but if a kobold wandered in a civilized settlement chances are it'd be put to death. Monster races are often killed on sight and frankly you don't get any evil points for it.
    ThacoBell
  • XereckXereck Member Posts: 30
    edited July 15
    I'm not so surprised about Keldorn's view/reaction on Drizzt vs. Viconia. Drizzt is Chaotic Good and while he wouldn't give much about authorities or laws, he's doing good things. Viconia on the other hand, being Neutral Evil, wouldn't hesitate to betray friends/family members if doing so would benefit her personally. While Drow as a race is inherently evil, Keldorn is actually able to see through race and judge people on their alignment. If the authorities wants to put Viconia on the stake combined with her evil nature, I don't see why Keldorn should be against it or stop it.
    ThacoBell
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,393
    The Forgotten Realms wikia states Shar is essentially seeking to extinguish the sun... I think thats pretty much the most evil goal of the Faerun Pantheon. Seeing as Priests are supposed to actively work towards their patron's goals, it should be apparent that any Paladin would in fact be obligated to take up arms againat a cleric of Shar.

    Letting a guilty person be burned at a stake would be awfully callus, but he gets detect evil for just this reason I suppose.
    ThacoBellArtonaBelgarathMTH
  • bdtgazobdtgazo Member Posts: 31
    edited July 21
    If I don't take Viconia, I feel terrible. 'I'll just live alone in the graveyard after nearly being burned alive just for being a drow... after being savaged by my neighbor, just for being a drow.'

    Same with Arrie. 'I'll just wait here. I've nothing else to do.'

    I feel so bad for them.

    edit - the problem with that is, assuming I take Hexxat, a favorite of mine, and Jaheira, who makes life so much easier, I start to feel like I have a little harem going.
    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023
    Seriously, the worst thing about BG2 is that it caps your party at 6. I would LOVE a mod that has every recruited npc go to a "base camp" area. So that you can rp travelling with a larger group.
    Mirandel
  • RVNSRVNS Member Posts: 62
    @ThacoBell That would be an awesome mod indeed. It would also make for a great adventure all on its own, especially if you added say Edwin and Neera at your base camp. You could have a whole game of intrigue going on there and could even have npc's murder one another making for an interesting mystery for you to investigate. Just thoughts and ramblings.
    ThacoBell
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 921
    bdtgazo said:

    edit - the problem with that is, assuming I take Hexxat, a favorite of mine, and Jaheira, who makes life so much easier, I start to feel like I have a little harem going.

    "You say that like it's a bad thing!" - Henry VIII

    batoorThacoBell
Sign In or Register to comment.