Magic/Mana points and inf ammo option

Zippydsmlee

One things that killed me with BG was the arcane(hehe) magic system it drove me nuts and ammo was nearly as bad. If not a option please tell me people can mod it.

As for info ammo mostly reg ammo I am talking about.

ajwz

I think you might shortly be lynched

bigdogchris

ajwz said:

I think you might shortly be lynched

Was looking for rope before even reading your post.

Coriander

The ammo stacks have been increased but we're not going to change the magic system.

elminster

The mana proposition sounds like it would make BG into being a boring and generic RPG with a good campaign. I'm not in favour of it, though if people want to mod it in go ahead (though I can't see why you'd want it).

Jalily

Play as a sorcerer. :P

Wiggles

Man the harpoons... -_-

Dee

I've tried to design MP systems for D&D before. Several times.

I've attacked it form different angles, I've tried scaling and non-scaling effects.

My research has concluded that it can't be done in any balanced kind of fashion. The Vancian system isn't perfect, but it's better than MP.

elminster

Wiggles said:

Man the harpoons... -_-

avast ye matee, ship approaching a mile off starboard.

moody_mage

Burn this suggestion with fire, and douse it out with acid.

IchigoRXC

Thar she blows!!

ChurchOfBoo

Too much of a drastic change to the game and too far removed from the D&D system. I would be pretty upset if BG started looking like Diablo.

Pecca

What could be modded, that might help you, is maybe something like potion of spell restoration (with similar effect as wonderous recall), which perhaps churches could sell...

moody_mage

There are potions on a NWN2 PW which when used grant the same benefits as a full night of rest. They are fairly rare mind you.

Zippydsmlee

elminster said:

The mana proposition sounds like it would make BG into being a boring and generic RPG with a good campaign. I'm not in favour of it, though if people want to mod it in go ahead (though I can't see why you'd want it).

So instead its a insanely repetitive and hard retro RPG?

As I said make it an option, or make it moddable like BG2 so it can be done.
========================================================

After Minsc went nuts twice(which I now call all friendly AI going nuts and destroying your game a Minsc fit) and took out my party because I dared use magic and had to rest to you know USE it it really hurt me on playing BG, I switched over to all fighters and had an annoying time.


Hell in order to enjoy it a bit I added 10 spell points to level one ,9 to lvl 2, on up to 1 to lvl 10 via the glorious character editor. Even then it didn't help smoothness of play much.

All the D&D games that use the spell point system are too damn tedious, at least with magic points you can setup it up so you get 1 point regen per 1ish minutes of time.

Though best way to do it IMO is based on a stamina and magic point system. Say lvl 1 magic is 1 point per cast and 1 point of stamina. You have a starting max of 10 stamina points and 5 or so magic points. Magic points regen maybe 1 per half a minute and stamina regens 1 per 4 minutes.

Stamina for mages dose 2 things keeps their str/agl/def stats at max, at 25% of stamina you lose 50% of those stats for attack/defend/hit.

edit
Also forgot to mention if you run out of stamina you pass out kinda like in Arcanum.
edit

You can tweak it further via will,int and stamina this changes rates and maxs around a bit.

Then have it use no stamina on spells that you are 10X the level of, IE to cast a spell without stamina use you need to be level 10 for a level one spell or level 100 for a level 10 spell.

Then add in some abilities to quarter/half that requirement.

Now mind you I am using regen since there is nothing to use to replenish magic with.

Or you can with a cool down mechanic and the spell point system,starting off 1 minute coolown for level one spells. As you cast a spell you use a slot on the spell point system, IE you have 5 points you can cast 5 spells rapidly but each slot would take up to 1 min each to recharge. lvl 2 would 2.3 min, on up to lvl 10 taking 13 minutes or so.

Just make the game moddlable LOL

BTW how many timed quests are in BG1? I never want to go through a Minsc fit again >>

HaHaCharade

Zippydsmlee said:

elminster said:

The mana proposition sounds like it would make BG into being a boring and generic RPG with a good campaign. I'm not in favour of it, though if people want to mod it in go ahead (though I can't see why you'd want it).

So instead its a insanely repetitive and hard retro RPG?

As I said make it an option, or make it moddable like BG2 so it can be done.
========================================================

After Minsc went nuts twice(which I now call all friendly AI going nuts and destroying your game a Minsc fit) and took out my party because I dared use magic and had to rest to you know USE it it really hurt me on playing BG, I switched over to all fighters and had an annoying time.


Hell in order to enjoy it a bit I added 10 spell points to level one ,9 to lvl 2, on up to 1 to lvl 10 via the glorious character editor. Even then it didn't help smoothness of play much.

All the D&D games that use the spell point system are too damn tedious, at least with magic points you can setup it up so you get 1 point regen per 1ish minutes of time.

Though best way to do it IMO is based on a stamina and magic point system. Say lvl 1 magic is 1 point per cast and 1 point of stamina. You have a starting max of 10 stamina points and 5 or so magic points. Magic points regen maybe 1 per half a minute and stamina regens 1 per 4 minutes.

Stamina for mages dose 2 things keeps their str/agl/def stats at max, at 25% of stamina you lose 50% of those stats for attack/defend/hit.

You can tweak it further via will,int and stamina this changes rates and maxs around a bit.

Then have it use no stamina on spells that you are 10X the level of, IE to cast a spell without stamina use you need to be level 10 for a level one spell or level 100 for a level 10 spell.

Then add in some abilities to quarter/half that requirement.

Now mind you I am using regen since there is nothing to use to replenish magic with.

Or you can with a cool down mechanic and the spell point system,starting off 1 minute coolown for level one spells. As you cast a spell you use a slot on the spell point system, IE you have 5 points you can cast 5 spells rapidly but each slot would take up to 1 min each to recharge. lvl 2 would 2.3 min, on up to lvl 10 taking 13 minutes or so.

Just make the game moddlable LOL

BTW how many timed quests are in BG1? I never want to go through a Minsc fit again >>

You do know this game is based on AD&D 2nd Edition, which is one of its main selling points right? AD&D has no such system for magic, so I doubt it would ever be implemented in a game using that rule-set. By modding it in that way, you'd make a game that wouldn't even be like AD&D, which defeats the purpose even more so. On a side note, AD&D itself has been played and enjoyed with spell memorization for decades. I don't think its *that* broken. Mages are already the most powerful class end-game, and adding a way to replenish magic would just break them.

Zippydsmlee

HaHaCharade said:

Zippydsmlee said:

elminster said:

The mana proposition sounds like it would make BG into being a boring and generic RPG with a good campaign. I'm not in favour of it, though if people want to mod it in go ahead (though I can't see why you'd want it).

So instead its a insanely repetitive and hard retro RPG?

As I said make it an option, or make it moddable like BG2 so it can be done.
========================================================

After Minsc went nuts twice(which I now call all friendly AI going nuts and destroying your game a Minsc fit) and took out my party because I dared use magic and had to rest to you know USE it it really hurt me on playing BG, I switched over to all fighters and had an annoying time.


Hell in order to enjoy it a bit I added 10 spell points to level one ,9 to lvl 2, on up to 1 to lvl 10 via the glorious character editor. Even then it didn't help smoothness of play much.

All the D&D games that use the spell point system are too damn tedious, at least with magic points you can setup it up so you get 1 point regen per 1ish minutes of time.

Though best way to do it IMO is based on a stamina and magic point system. Say lvl 1 magic is 1 point per cast and 1 point of stamina. You have a starting max of 10 stamina points and 5 or so magic points. Magic points regen maybe 1 per half a minute and stamina regens 1 per 4 minutes.

Stamina for mages dose 2 things keeps their str/agl/def stats at max, at 25% of stamina you lose 50% of those stats for attack/defend/hit.

You can tweak it further via will,int and stamina this changes rates and maxs around a bit.

Then have it use no stamina on spells that you are 10X the level of, IE to cast a spell without stamina use you need to be level 10 for a level one spell or level 100 for a level 10 spell.

Then add in some abilities to quarter/half that requirement.

Now mind you I am using regen since there is nothing to use to replenish magic with.

Or you can with a cool down mechanic and the spell point system,starting off 1 minute coolown for level one spells. As you cast a spell you use a slot on the spell point system, IE you have 5 points you can cast 5 spells rapidly but each slot would take up to 1 min each to recharge. lvl 2 would 2.3 min, on up to lvl 10 taking 13 minutes or so.

Just make the game moddlable LOL

BTW how many timed quests are in BG1? I never want to go through a Minsc fit again >>

You do know this game is based on AD&D 2nd Edition, which is one of its main selling points right? AD&D has no such system for magic, so I doubt it would ever be implemented in a game using that rule-set. By modding it in that way, you'd make a game that wouldn't even be like AD&D, which defeats the purpose even more so. On a side note, AD&D itself has been played and enjoyed with spell memorization for decades. I don't think its *that* broken. Mages are already the most powerful class end-game, and adding a way to replenish magic would just break them.

So? I am more worried about making it more fun and less mindlessly tedious, as I said don't make it the default option but at least do something other than the horrible magic system it has.

Also forgot to mention if you run out of stamina you pass out kinda like in Arcanum.

O_Bruce

How do I feel about implementing this request?

Zippydsmlee

ZelgadisGW said:

How do I feel about implementing this request?

Crappy mechanics are crappy mechanics even if its a classic classical style of mechanic its not better than crap mechanics in most of today's new games.

Oh and the game would still be 100 times better than Dragon Age Origins even with simplified magic.

Still any word on the game being moddable?

O_Bruce

Every magic mechanics in the games has it's advantages and disadvantages. In case of mana-based mechanic, the disadvantage is that with big mana ammount and decend mana regeneration, you can pretty much spam the most powerfull spells over and over again.

True, DnD mechanics may appear as a pain-in-the-ass, but on the other hand it has some aspect that really got me into mages: your power is limited by number of spells, which means you basically cannot afford to use them without thinking at all. Also, preparing and predicting spells that you are going to need at certain point of the game/certain dungeon, locations etc. Without those, playing mage in BG would be boring.

I think it will not become any LESS moddable than in basic Baldur's Gate 2. Here's something that may seem interesting to you:
http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?automodule=downloads&showfile=524

Zippydsmlee

ZelgadisGW said:

Every magic mechanics in the games has it's advantages and disadvantages. In case of mana-based mechanic, the disadvantage is that with big mana ammount and decend mana regeneration, you can pretty much spam the most powerfull spells over and over again.

True, DnD mechanics may appear as a pain-in-the-ass, but on the other hand it has some aspect that really got me into mages: your power is limited by number of spells, which means you basically cannot afford to use them without thinking at all. Also, preparing and predicting spells that you are going to need at certain point of the game/certain dungeon, locations etc. Without those, playing mage in BG would be boring.

I think it will not become any LESS moddable than in basic Baldur's Gate 2. Here's something that may seem interesting to you:
http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?automodule=downloads&showfile=524

Ah thanks.

How can you spam something that would take 5-10 minutes to recharge and longer if you use lower level spells?

O_Bruce

Well, I was talking about mana system in general, nothing in particular. Basically, I wanted to point that every thing has some disadvantages. Whatever, this request will not be implemented anyway, since developers has to stick to advanced dungeon & dragons rules. Your only hope lies in mods, unfortunately for you.

Zippydsmlee

ZelgadisGW said:

Well, I was talking about mana system in general, nothing in particular. Basically, I wanted to point that every thing has some disadvantages. Whatever, this request will not be implemented anyway, since developers has to stick to advanced dungeon & dragons rules. Your only hope lies in mods, unfortunately for you.

Which is fine , I just wish there were more options, heck add a full featured character editor or some fun cheats to it, never enough re balancing options in games these days and everything tends to be made for non gamers to sell to larger demographics.

ankheg

Manapoints? BG has some appropriate answer for this:

Ha, you're a queer fellow.
Death comes for you! Feel its icy breath!
We're all doomed.
I'll teach ya grandmother to suck eggs.
Me will crush you! Crush you to GOO!
You mess with me, you mess with YOU!
You are amusing, in a "what the hell is wrong with you" kind of way.
I am death, come for thee. Surrender, and thy passage shall be... quicker.
Away with you beggar . . . .
Oh shut up.
What is you, a big sissy?
... somebody get this jerk a banana.
Speak once more against those with enough intelligence to grind you into salt and I'll instill a bit more respect in you, fool.
eh...
are you having trouble at home?
Is that true? Sounds pretty horrid, if ya ask me.
monkey-brained ... how would you like your flaming death you... grrrr...
There goes a truly evil man. Uncle Scratchy looks like a saint compared to him.
Well, you know, it's funny that this situation should come up. It's not something that I like to think about much
Typical. If I had a sense of humor left I might find that funny. I do not, on both accounts.
Silence dog! You have no purpose but to die by my hand!
Let's see what yer guts be lookin' like!
Murder! Death! Kill! Murder! Death! Kill! Bouah-ha-ha-ha!
Kill! Kill! Kill! Yeah cool!!
Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up!
My anger is under complete control ! COMPLETE ! I'll control it as I rip limb from limb, I WILL control it as I pound head after head !
You'll have a magic missile or two within you pretty soon! Now stop all this nonsense and go away.
Fear my unholy wrath!
(sigh) So what else is new?
you are truly a paragon of dwarven ill-humor
My heart bleeds. Yours will too.
Wait! I have to rest and memorize magic missile!
(sigh) This isn't going to end well, is it?
No! Don't do this! I DON'T WANT TO DIE!!!
Well, then ye're dead. Shut up and let the rest of us get some sleep.

BaldursCat

I think you might be better playing Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (& that's a serious comment from someone who LOVES those games).

Zippydsmlee

ankheg said:

Manapoints? BG has some appropriate answer for this:

snip

Lovely thing about options you can turn them off. :P

Like I was ranting about in Dishonored how hard is it now adays to have option sliders for AI tolerances such as sight,hearing,genreal detection, and sliders for out going damage you do and damage done to you,critical hit damages, AI cool down times,ect,ect,

Basically have 20 or less sliders which change soft values within the game, it would make things like FO3,Bioshock and Dishonored suck much much less.

Oh ya, here is a question for BG, NPC mages do they have a magic limit?

ankheg

They use the same system basically, but sometimes they have extra spells, abilities, spellslots etc. They are not limitless of course.

Pecca

Zippydsmlee said:

ZelgadisGW said:

Well, I was talking about mana system in general, nothing in particular. Basically, I wanted to point that every thing has some disadvantages. Whatever, this request will not be implemented anyway, since developers has to stick to advanced dungeon & dragons rules. Your only hope lies in mods, unfortunately for you.

Which is fine , I just wish there were more options, heck add a full featured character editor or some fun cheats to it, never enough re balancing options in games these days and everything tends to be made for non gamers to sell to larger demographics.

I use Near Infinity editor. It's pretty awesome
http://www.idi.ntnu.no/~joh/ni/download.html

HexHammer

DnD magic casting system never made sense to me, cast a few 1st lvl spells and rest 8h ..............WHAT?!?!?!?!
Ammo stacks made no sens in BG vanialla, usually an archer can kill 1 person with just 1 arrow or pacify him, in DnD you can easily waste 4 arrows on just 1 person and that kind of ammo useage does not correspond with the low stack, also considering the time away from a supplier.

Ammo stacks should be 200.

Zippydsmlee

ankheg said:

They use the same system basically, but sometimes they have extra spells, abilities, spellslots etc. They are not limitless of course.

Thanks!


=====================================

Pecca said:

Zippydsmlee said:

ZelgadisGW said:

snip

I use Near Infinity editor. It's pretty awesome
http://www.idi.ntnu.no/~joh/ni/download.html

Checking it out, thanks!!
============================

HexHammer said:

DnD magic casting system never made sense to me, cast a few 1st lvl spells and rest 8h ..............WHAT?!?!?!?!
Ammo stacks made no sens in BG vanialla, usually an archer can kill 1 person with just 1 arrow or pacify him, in DnD you can easily waste 4 arrows on just 1 person and that kind of ammo useage does not correspond with the low stack, also considering the time away from a supplier.

Ammo stacks should be 200.

It was meant to be used in table top RPGs but when you transition it away from game master, booze and plain old fashion bending of the rules to keep things fun or whacky it just dose not work. This is why it was changed to a Magic point system in 3.5 or 4 edition. Not a huge table top RPG fan tho I had a bunch of fun with rifts :P
================================

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Warninggoing off in zippy land
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IMO as a mechanic its main point is to force you to rest alot and to limit the use of magic on in battle.

Anyone up to figuring out how many spells based on level can be cast in real time? Like take a couple hours and count them out.

Then after doing that you can create like mechanics based on real time study of the mechanic as so you change it into a less tediously cumbersome system.


Slot based cool downs seems to be the easiest implementation there of.

Bercon

Ammo stacks are supposedly fixed and if they are not, there is day 1 mod to fix them.

Magic system should be kept identical to what it was before. This is an enhanced edition, not a remake nor a new game. Besides the BG spell system is pretty nice in that it keeps lower level spells still fairly viable at higher levels, because you have so limited amount of slots of higher level spells. It adds an additional level of strategy when you have to select beforehand what you are going to use in the future battles.