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Ur-Gothoz Lore Question [Dorn Quest Spoilers]

ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I very vaguely remember at some point someone mentioning that Ur-Gothoz is originally from another D&D setting, does anyone know anything more about this?

Also, if Dorn chooses to betray Ur-Gothoz and becomes a fallen Blackguard, what would theoretically become of him after he dies, assuming that Charname didn't become his new patron post-ascension or Charname didn't become a god at all. I am not sure if demon-worship counts as a legit faith in Kelemvor's eyes so would he treated as a False (for betraying his faith) or would he be treated as a Faithless, meaning he'd end up in the Wall of the Faithless? Or does he maybe bypass judgement and Ur-Gothoz snatches his soul away for revenge?

Comments

  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Pretty sure it goes to whatever plane matches his alignment
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    No, he doesn't. When someone from the Forgotten Realms dies, they go to the City of Judgement on the Fugue Plane, where they are judged by Kelemvor on their faith. There are usually four possible outcomes, as far as I know:

    1. If they where a faithful and loyal follower of a god, they go to that god's plane.
    2. If they sold their soul in their lifetime to an outsider (demon, devil, etc.) their souls go to whomever they own their soul.
    3. If they didn't have a faith, they go into the Wall of the Faithless, as punishment. That fate can sometimes be averted though if a god shows them mercy and takes them under their protection anyway. That can happen when the individual followed a god's doctrines by nature, if they died too young to develope a faith or if the god in question cares about them for some other reason.
    4. If they claimed fealty to a god but didn't follow their doctrines (i.e. worshipped Helm but broke the law all the time), they are marked as a False and will be tortured or otherwise punished.

    This is unique to the Realms, because Kelemvor is a dick who likes blackmailing people into worshipping gods, because gods are only as powerful as how much they are worshipped.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Buttercheese It's not Kelemvor's fault. He abolished the wall of the faithless and made the fugue plane a nicer place when he first ascended. This resulted in the gods not getting as many worshippers so Ao smacked Kelemvor around until he changed things back to the status quo. Its the same reason that Mystra doesn't cut off certain dangerous people from the Weave and has to enlist chosen mages to fix problems of magic for her. Ao holds a very tight leash on all the other gods.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    Interesting. Mask of the Betrayer made it look like it's Kelemvor's fault.
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,297
    ThacoBell said:

    @Buttercheese It's not Kelemvor's fault. He abolished the wall of the faithless and made the fugue plane a nicer place when he first ascended. This resulted in the gods not getting as many worshippers so Ao smacked Kelemvor around until he changed things back to the status quo. Its the same reason that Mystra doesn't cut off certain dangerous people from the Weave and has to enlist chosen mages to fix problems of magic for her. Ao holds a very tight leash on all the other gods.

    Yes. I always thought this was a stupid story - with having people worship the gods just because they will be punished otherwise. How is that genuine faith?

    The main question would be whether Ao or Kelemvor is to blame here - but Kelemvor could at least resign and walk away. There is precedent for that. So he can't just put all the blame on Ao here.

  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    In conclusion: The entire system is corrupt. DOWN WITH THE MAN! VIVE LA REVOLUTION!!
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Yeah, just watch as Kelemvor resign and and AO makes Helm take over. Might as well assign a Modron to judge souls!
  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,736
    As far as I understand, while the wall wasn't quite a necessity when Myrkul had constructed it, it did become more important after the Time of Troubles and Ao's decree that all gods from now on must depend upon their followers' faith.
    And when you consider why ToT has happened, i.e. Bane and Myrkul tried to steal the tablets, you may notice that both sentences mention Myrkul as directly involved.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    Okay guys, I am usually not one to complain about going offtopic for too long, but I'd really like to get some answers for my original questions >.>
  • Joan_DaroJoan_Daro Member Posts: 112
    edited November 2017
    Buttercheese said:

    Okay guys, I am usually not one to complain about going offtopic for too long, but I'd really like to get some answers for my original questions >.>

    Well, never heard about the name Ur-Gothoz before BGEE so I don't know if that "another DND setting" exists. Absolutely nothing from google & wikis so I guess that's a NO.
    Assuming charname didn't ascend. Both Ur-Gothoz and Azothet are sealed in that sword, no one will come to snatch his soul and he might end up on the wall. Or perhaps the seal is finally broken and two angry demons seek their revenge.
    If the name of his patron is added to the Scroll of Retribution, there might be one less angry demon...
    Another possibility might be, idk, Tyr eventually finding out what happened in Lunia? The silver dragons might want to finish what Mercy Whitedove started.
    That's a grim outlook anyway.
    In SOD he mentioned that he might join the Blood War after his death, and according to himself, "for the glory of Ur-Gothoz". But, well, things happened... He might still end up in that war, though.

    Well, I know this does not sound like a solid answer... but it's what I can manage. :)
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    I think @Joan_Daro 's explanation is as good as any. As for the current off topic, topic

    MotB takes place after Ao "corrected" Kelemvor, and considering the shenanigans that the previous 3 gods of death got up to, Kelemvor is a godsend for simply doing his job as intended.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I think Ur-Gothoz was original to BGEE.
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