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Fighting/Backstabbing with Mage/Thiefs?

Do you use characters like Jan or Imoen to backstab or melee, or do you just use them as regular Mages who can also open locks, disarm traps and set traps?

Aerakar

Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,840
    I personally use the latter. But you can set up some delicious cheese to get infinite consequence free backstabs.

    AerakarOrlonKronsteen
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 265
    I use rogues for loot and detect illusion, bards for traps and kensai for damage. The minimum damage of rogues is pretty bad, so i try not to depend on that.

    DJKajuru
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,656
    You could surely use them for backstabing by casting strength+haste+lots of invisibility spells (don't forget stoneskin for that extra bit of safety) , but it's not the best tactic for them - perhaps in smaller party they'd have to assume that role of backstaber, though.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    Jan yes, Imoen no generally. Imoen misses too easily imho.

    Blackraven
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,327
    If you like the smell of cheese you can cast mislead well away from the fight and, depending on the opponent, lock that in with spell immunity. That then allows you to try continual backstabs - the bonus of +4 for attacking from invisible helps with the relatively poor thief THAC0.

    ThacoBellMirandel
  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 893
    edited November 2017
    Jan starts with most of his thieving skill points in open locks, pick pockets, detect traps and detect illusion. However, since he is a multi-class thief, he can reach to the 5x back-stab multiplier limit, which Imoen can't. A second level spell slot can conveniently be dedicated to "Strength" spell and that lasts long enough for a fight (1 turn/level). So, investing all of Jan's skill points in Move Silently/Hide in Shadows as he levels up is a good idea (since his other thieving abilities are already more or less saturated). And that makes Jan versatile. He might not be your regular assassin, but in this way he can use back-stab effectively, which is an added bonus to his arcane and traps-locks-illusions skills.

    And as already said, back-stabbing with Mislead on can be extremely devastating, and other than Imoen who has a poor back-stab multiplier, or a Mage/Thief protagonist, only Jan has this option. I once took out Mae'Var and his goons with Jan alone, using this strategy. [Whether you think it's cheesy or not is entirely up to you, I'm not going to say anything on that, except that it's good. B) ]

    Melee is an entirely different story. You'd need Stoneskin, Strength, Haste, Fireshield, Blur, Mirror Image, PFMW (that lasts only 4 rounds) to be effective at all and survive with that small pool of hit points. Better do it with a Fighter/Mage. And in my opinion, consistent melee with Imoen and Jan is not a very good idea. Just back-stab, run away, and sling your spells from the safety of the back-lines.

    That's all I have to say. Sorry for the long post.

    ThacoBellAerakarPokota
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    My 7 Con (at best, he started at 6 and sacced Con for the dream sequence before getting it back with Lum's) was well into melee against trash mobs by late SoA with the help of strength boosting gear, Kundane and Belm. He ended up with Crom Faeyr (he was with Imoen, Neera, Aerie, Jan and Rasaad, if I recall, so not much competition for it) and pasted plenty of face because who needs proficiency when you have 25 Strength.

    But yeah, melee is not a dangerous place for the mage unless something is immune to both fire and ice. Even in BG an I/T can get 2 level 4 spells. Mirror Image + Stoneskin + Fireshield means your attacker will need five hits to completely pierce through your wards, which is 10D8+20 damage.
    In BG2 a quick PfMW with your shields up will kill most fast hitting fighter types during those 4 rounds, and having a middling AC is fine, since you want them to hit you and die faster, and you can be dropping spells or attacking at the same time with zero restrictions since the damage is free. And by cap you can use Projected Image to do it for you with zero actual risk and far fewer actual spells.

    recklessheartAerakar
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 688
    Pantalion said:

    My 7 Con (at best, he started at 6 and sacced Con for the dream sequence before getting it back with Lum's) was well into melee against trash mobs by late SoA with the help of strength boosting gear, Kundane and Belm.

    ...

    But yeah, melee is not a dangerous place for the mage unless something is immune to both fire and ice.

    I concur with prior posts that dispute the efficiency of a melee Thief/Mage build, but agree with @Pantalion insofar as saying that HP is really not an issue. By the time I've reached Shadows of Amn I don't track HP at all except to satisfy my curiosity about who is 'doing the best' in that department. A Thief/Mage will be fine to survive in melee given that their arcane class elements are geared towards acknowledging their time spent in melee. The 1 APR is the primary grievance you will have, and their damage output is sadly mitigated by that silly rule.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    Pantalion said:

    My 7 Con (at best, he started at 6 and sacced Con for the dream sequence before getting it back with Lum's) was well into melee against trash mobs by late SoA with the help of strength boosting gear, Kundane and Belm.

    ...

    But yeah, melee is not a dangerous place for the mage unless something is immune to both fire and ice.

    I concur with prior posts that dispute the efficiency of a melee Thief/Mage build, but agree with @Pantalion insofar as saying that HP is really not an issue. By the time I've reached Shadows of Amn I don't track HP at all except to satisfy my curiosity about who is 'doing the best' in that department. A Thief/Mage will be fine to survive in melee given that their arcane class elements are geared towards acknowledging their time spent in melee. The 1 APR is the primary grievance you will have, and their damage output is sadly mitigated by that silly rule.
    Well, outside of the 4D8+8 damage per round against everything hitting you in melee:

    1 APR +1 wielding Belm +1 wielding Crom Faeyr +1/2 wearing gauntlets.

    7/2 APR
    x2 iHaste

    7 APR / round at +14 damage per hit.

    Of course, now there's the Dagger thing, it's more optimal to stick with Firetooth and a strength belt instead. Assuming you didn't start at 18 Strength in BG1, Tome, Lums, and Evil up to 22 natural Strength at least.

    1 APR +1 wielding Firetooth +2 wielding Belm + 1/2 wearing gauntlets.

    9/2 APR
    x2 iHaste

    9 APR / round.

    THAC0 3, 8 for the offhand Belm. Hits for 2D4+3+1D2+10 for the 7 main hand hits without Tenser's or Improved Invisibility, though THAC0 is irrelevant once you hit them with a stun.

    Before then, there's always Polymorph Self, especially in conjunction with Web.

    AerakarThacoBellRik_KirtaniyaMirandel
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    THAC0 of 3 seems low for high level enemies imho.

    Rik_Kirtaniya
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    DreadKhan said:

    THAC0 of 3 seems low for high level enemies imho.

    As I said, THAC0 is irrelevant, the Mage/Thief has access to various stun effects, which means any hits are automatic strikes. But at -1 THAC0 with Imp. Inv. isn't bad, since AC in ToB isn't actually all that bad.

    Demogorgon: -16
    Melissan: -12
    Silver Dragon: -12
    Draconis: -10
    Balthazar: -14

    And if something needs a +4 weapon to hit, you should be using Black Blade of Disaster, dropping to 3 base APR with Belm and with the +5 and Grand Mastery that the spell imparts +3 that's -6 THAC0.

    And still not using Tenser's, which is +2 to hit and damage and gives, I believe, up to an extra -9 to THAC0 by setting THAC0 progression to a Fighter (which is 1 at CL 20), meaning either -12 THAC0 at 9 APR or 6 APR at -17 THAC0 with the +6 sword of annihilation.

    Rik_Kirtaniya
  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 893
    @Pantalion, after reading your last two posts, I have come to the conclusion that a Mage/Thief is not as much of a weakling as I thought that build to be. In fact, the setup you mentioned is just great. But, I still must assert that the thief half of this build doesn't contribute anything to melee other than the ability to use martial weapons like Belm, Crom Faeyr, (and perhaps those gauntlets?). It is in fact the mage half that gives the critical spells of Improved Haste, Tenser's Transformation, Black Blade of Disaster, and so on.

    On the other hand, using a Fighter/Mage is significantly better both in terms of APR and THAC0. I don't wish to undermine the efficiency of a Thief/Mage in melee, but, to be sincere, using it in such a way is more of an improvisation, which I'd be doing only if I really had no other options. Not only can a Fighter/Mage overcome that silly base THAC0 cap of 10 that's the limit with thieves, but also he can invest 3 points in Two weapon fighting which allows a character dual wielding with Belm and Crom Faeyr or Firetooth more likely to hit properly. Using the setup that you mentioned above, I got a far better result with a Fighter/Mage. See below:


    This setup is with Crom Faeyr in the main hand and Belm in the offhand, and Improved Haste active. In comparison to 7 APRs with a Mage/Thief, this guy gets 10 APRs (!!!). [3 extra APRs is not a joke, it even eliminates the necessity to use Whirlwind Attack.] Also the THAC0 difference is immense. The character shown above is just level 15, and when he reaches level 20, his base THAC0 will come down to 0, and main hand THAC0 (with the same setup) to -13 and offhand to -8, which would just be enough to consistently hit the bad bosses, without having to lose the invaluable ability to cast your spells due to Tenser's Transformation on. On the other hand, a Mage/Thief in the same setup cannot get past that THAC0 of 3.

    But then again, I don't wish to undermine the effectiveness of Mage/Thieves in melee. It's just that Fighter/Mages are consistently much more effective for the same purpose. :)

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Oh, I completely agree, the Fighter/Mage is probably overall the best melee class in the game (yes, including all pure Fighters, Paladins, and the Swashbuckler, come at me I have maths), and I'm definitely not claiming that the Mage/Thief is the best in melee, just that they're perfectly capable of filling that role if they want to, and arguably better than most fighters that aren't Mages (again, come at me), and that's before you roll out the Mislead cheese for 9 x5 backstabs per round.

    That they can do this while still being an epic level (gnome) mage and thief with HLA thief abilities and full level 9 specialist casting is what makes them one of the strongest five-ish classes in the game from an optimisation perspective, but that's a little outside the scope of the "fighting/backstabbing" topic.

  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 893
    edited November 2017
    Pantalion said:

    ...just that they're perfectly capable of filling that role if they want to, and arguably better than most fighters that aren't Mages (again, come at me), and that's before you roll out the Mislead cheese for 9 x5 backstabs per round.
    ...

    Give the plain fighter the Ring of Gaxx (Improved Haste 3x a day), and the mage/thief will no longer be any better (in melee). More so with the poor THAC0 that the latter has.

    Mislead rules however.

  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 893
    Hey, I just remembered another thing that makes Mage/Thieves excellent backstabbers. Use Spell Immunity: Divination, go invisible, and you can backstab even in those situations where enemy mages use True Sight (since SI:D blocks it).

  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 265
    edited November 2017
    Pantalion said:

    Oh, I completely agree, the Fighter/Mage is probably overall the best melee class in the game (yes, including all pure Fighters, Paladins, and the Swashbuckler, come at me I have maths), and I'm definitely not claiming that the Mage/Thief is the best in melee, just that they're perfectly capable of filling that role if they want to, and arguably better than most fighters that aren't Mages (again, come at me), and that's before you roll out the Mislead cheese for 9 x5 backstabs per round.

    That they can do this while still being an epic level (gnome) mage and thief with HLA thief abilities and full level 9 specialist casting is what makes them one of the strongest five-ish classes in the game from an optimisation perspective, but that's a little outside the scope of the "fighting/backstabbing" topic.

    f/m wouldn't necessarily be my first choice for a team member. There is hardly ever need for a party tank when a cleric/mage can throw something in as quick as snapping its fingers or instantly heal a heavily injured group with spell sequenced heals. A sorcerer is far better at arcane magic for obvious reasons, and there is only one of those amulets and robes so I'm not giving it to the f/m. A kensai will wind up doing almost 50 damage with a grand mastered crom and kai activated. about 500 damage per round if one of them crits, and I would MAKE half of them crit with the proper HLA for a round of over 700 damage.

    So, that would be half of my team of A listers. I suppose a skald would be next, followed by 2 more kensais, one throwing daggers and graduating to katanas and maces, the other throwing axes graduating to the crom and another one grand mastering slings to be an archer who I might consider dual classing to thief depending on how annoyed I feel about the traps I can't disarm.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    Pantalion said:

    ...just that they're perfectly capable of filling that role if they want to, and arguably better than most fighters that aren't Mages (again, come at me), and that's before you roll out the Mislead cheese for 9 x5 backstabs per round.
    ...

    Give the plain fighter the Ring of Gaxx (Improved Haste 3x a day), and the mage/thief will no longer be any better (in melee). More so with the poor THAC0 that the latter has.

    Mislead rules however.
    Melee is about more than APR. How about a level 40 Kensai with iHaste versus... five Demogorgons?

    10 APR. Grand Mastery Crom Faeyr (we'll pretend he can get 5 APR while one-handing or that he has two of them, because I'm lazy.
    -28 THAC0, or whatever the system cap is.
    5-8+32 damage/hit, max with Kai = 40/hit.
    342 average damage per round including crit misses and Demo's 10% crushing resistance, but ignoring regeneration because calculating that nonsense is annoying.


    Random gnome drops Tenser's with BBoD (because Demo is +4 or better, right?) after pre-buffing, and has a PfMW.

    7 APR, 22 Strength, basic proficiency. (forgot the gauntlets give +1/2 APR above) but ignore 2 APR because Belm can't hurt Demogorgons.
    -17 THAC0 (1 -2 Tenser's -4 Strength -5 BBoD +2 TWF -1 Hat -1 Glove -3 GM -4 Improved Invisibility)
    2-24 + 22 damage/hit = 35 damage average.
    Hits on a 2+, so 149 average damage per round.

    Demogorgons also have a THAC0 of -19 with their +4 our poor random, naked, gnome, who has 6 AC after invisibility, on a 2 or better, meaning our hapless gnome gets hit 23.75 times a round on average.

    Fire Shield: Blue deals ~77 average damage/round. If Demogorgon weren't half immune to cold and completely immune to fire this would be four times this average damage per round, because Mages scale infinitely with the number of enemies hitting them (even sillier if UAI worked sensibly and the gnome can tote around the Hallowed Redeemer, but then they're less "hitting things in melee" so much as "being full time casters while doing damage just by standing in melee").

    Kensai kills five demogorgons in 5 rounds, and assuming they somehow got -20 AC get hit once per round by each surviving Demogorgon (very roughly fifteen times total), or around 337 HP damage before Hardy etc.
    Gnome kills five demogorgons in 7 rounds, and take, at most, enough damage to trigger a contingency for PfMW.

    While the Fighter and Kensai are better boss killer (purely talking melee), random naked Gnome is far better at tanking damage and dealing with multiple threats at once, even accelerating in the ol' murder rate when doing so.

    Oh, and Plain Fighter?

    +12 THAC0, -11 damage, no Kai versus the Kensai. 27.5 damage per hit, and -16 THAC0 (still hits Demo on a 2).
    235 average damage per round, kills five demogorgons in 7 rounds.

    Rik_KirtaniyaMirandel
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 265
    edited November 2017
    nevermind, was looking at something else.

  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 893
    edited November 2017
    Pantalion said:

    Demogorgons also have a THAC0 of -19 with their +4 our poor random, naked, gnome, who has 6 AC after invisibility, on a 2 or better, meaning our hapless gnome gets hit 23.75 times a round on average.

    @Pantalion Since Demogorgon can innately see through invisibility, do you think, that the AC bonus (-4, isn't it?) from invisibility would count after all?
    By the way, a wonderful mathematical description. The maths show that the gnome is a (much?) poorer damage dealer, but it'll still do, thanks to PFMW.

  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 356
    The drawback of plain fighter is limited ways to remove magical defenses, i mean it's great having 10 APR with Ring of Gaxx/Imp.Cloak of Invisibility/bracers etc for a limited time, but if all those attacks just ping off stoneskins or cannot even hit due to prot.Magic Weapons then you're in a world of hurt. To take Demogorgon as the example, his main threats are the summoned Mariliths (kinda need prot.Magic weapons to be able to ignore them) and his Implosion spell that will do major damage and stun for a round. So you need something that can absorb/turn/deflect Implosion, something that can keep the "trash" demons off for at least a bit and something that can remove his defenses ideally.

    From my experience the longer the fight lasts the more likely you are to die, mainly because there's so many defenses to keep track of it can be rough to correctly time the triggering of replacement spells when they run out at the same time as cycling through all the required offensive options.

    Of course the easiest option by FAR is to simply drop 3-5 Spike traps and chuckle as he bursts into demonic mist, but you do need to cheese that by setting them up before he physically appears, requiring meta-knowledge of the encounter.

    But no @Pantalion a plain fighter is most certainly NOT killing 5 demogorgons in 5 rounds, they cast Stoneskin when they appear and 10 APR won't even get past the initial casting on 1 of them, round 2 you'll get 3-5 Implosions to the face. And that's not even counting the 15 or so Marilith's they'll summon which will swarm you. A paladin could perhaps use Carsomyr, a Mage/something can use Staff of the magi, but a Plain fighter only has breach wands and if you are triggering items then you're limited to 1 per round.

    Can you solo Demogorgan with a Fighter, yes, but that's just 1 and requires the use of many, many items, and tbh i'm just talking about standard games hardest difficulty setting, let alone LoB or Lord Forbid SCS.

    Rik_KirtaniyaPantalion
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    So, that would be half of my team of A listers. I suppose a skald would be next, followed by 2 more kensais, one throwing daggers and graduating to katanas and maces, the other throwing axes graduating to the crom and another one grand mastering slings to be an archer who I might consider dual classing to thief depending on how annoyed I feel about the traps I can't disarm.

    Ooo, ninja'd.

    Yeah, generally my "optimal" party would include approximately zero Fighters. An I/C, an I/T, and an unkitted Bard (who most definitely won't be getting the "enhanced" bard song, which is a trap). A Shenanigans blinded I/T image with +3 luck is dealing 90 average damage for each of the spike traps they set in the middle of combat, and they're setting quite a few of them while Improved Alacrity lasts.

    Pantalion said:

    Demogorgons also have a THAC0 of -19 with their +4 our poor random, naked, gnome, who has 6 AC after invisibility, on a 2 or better, meaning our hapless gnome gets hit 23.75 times a round on average.

    @Pantalion Since Demogorgon can innately see through invisibility, do you think, that the AC bonus (-4, isn't it?) from invisibility would count after all?
    By the way, a wonderful mathematical description. The maths show that the gnome is a (much?) poorer damage dealer, but it'll still do, thanks to PFMW.
    Good question, if- they don't get the hit penalty then the gnome can wear clothes without reducing the frequency that Demo lands hits, but I went with the safe option.

    And yeah, the gnome deals way less single target damage than a fighter (in straight up melee), but can survive pretty much anything with very little investment of resources, and can deal damage to as many enemies as can hit it in melee, where fighters are hard capped at 10.
    Borek said:

    But no @Pantalion a plain fighter is most certainly NOT killing 5 demogorgons in 5 rounds, they cast Stoneskin when they appear and 10 APR won't even get past the initial casting on 1 of them, round 2 you'll get 3-5 Implosions to the face. And that's not even counting the 15 or so Marilith's they'll summon which will swarm you. A paladin could perhaps use Carsomyr, a Mage/something can use Staff of the magi, but a Plain fighter only has breach wands and if you are triggering items then you're limited to 1 per round.

    Very true, Borek, I was only counting raw stats rather than all the extra quirks Demogorgon can do, but that's a very good demonstration of the other factors in melee.

    Borek
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 265
    edited November 2017
    Pantalion said:

    So, that would be half of my team of A listers. I suppose a skald would be next, followed by 2 more kensais, one throwing daggers and graduating to katanas and maces, the other throwing axes graduating to the crom and another one grand mastering slings to be an archer who I might consider dual classing to thief depending on how annoyed I feel about the traps I can't disarm.

    Ooo, ninja'd.

    Yeah, generally my "optimal" party would include approximately zero Fighters. An I/C, an I/T, and an unkitted Bard (who most definitely won't be getting the "enhanced" bard song, which is a trap). A Shenanigans blinded I/T image with +3 luck is dealing 90 average damage for each of the spike traps they set in the middle of combat, and they're setting quite a few of them while Improved Alacrity lasts.
    .
    Ah, the old "if we can't see them they can't see us trick". That never occurred to me. Sounds very clever and effective. What will you do at lower levels?

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    Ah, the old "if we can't see them they can't see us trick". That never occurred to me. Sounds very clever and effective. What will you do at lower levels?

    Low levels?

    I/T MC for DUHM boosted thief skills. Focus on Open Locks and Find Traps (bard handles Pick Pocket) with leftover points into Set Snares.

    I/T gets Dex increases, probably Str.
    I/C gets Wis increases.
    Bard gets Cha increases (their primary job is to cheerlead and be pretty, after all).

    Bard focus on Longbow, Scimitars, maybe Flails before moving into TWF for BG2.
    I/T focus on Shortbow, Daggers, Staves (for future Staff o' Striking backstabs and a blunt option via Staff Mace +2) before, again, TWF.
    I/C focus on Slings and Maces. They can get Reflection Shield and Shield of Balduran in BG2 as necessary.

    Early tactics:

    Sleep/Command spam - Both are fantastic all the way up to Cloakwood or so.
    Blind -> Set Snare just without HLA traps (honestly they may have fixed this, haven't checked in the new version, but it's stupid cool otherwise).

    Sanctuary to bypass annoying encounters (but gank the loot anyway).

    Wand spam (the two Gnomes using Luck boosted scorcher wands deal 48 damage average each over two rounds).

    Cheese Drizzt with Gnolls, because it's funny for him to be killed by lowly gnolls, but also to skip the rep drop.

    Animate Dead spam - Bolstered by a Bard and Hasted, five of these suckers can cause, and tank, some serious damage. Skeletons can handle sirines, ghasts, carrion crawlers, and any extra basilisks. Familiar scouting blue NPCs doesn't trigger their auto chats, allowing the undead to get the drop on them early, and for the Cat it's able to hide away from regular spawns too.

    Poly self shenanigans with Fireshields, MI, Stoneskins (all three can do it eventually, so they can cycle between rest periods. Anything that deals piercing damage can't hurt the jelly at all, up to and including Pit Fiends, but also notably trolls. Basic MI/Stoneskins can handle most other things well enough until PfMW).

    Multiple Webs + one guy Polyself Spider (if they haven't fixed Cleric sequencers with Polyself then ideally a Spider with a +3 magic hammer with 18/50 strength, I miss you 5 APR sling wielding spidergatling) to murder all the trapped little victims.
    Basic AOE nuking (supported by Bardic luck for extra damage, naturally).

    MMMs against anything traditionally resistant to conventional murder tactics, probably up to and including finishing off Sarevok after luring him into Snares.

    Actually that sounds interesting enough I'm going to start a run through now, with three half elves with keepered in kits. Les enfants terrible, Triplets of Bhaal.

  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 265
    Pantalion said:

    Ah, the old "if we can't see them they can't see us trick". That never occurred to me. Sounds very clever and effective. What will you do at lower levels?

    Low levels?

    I/T MC for DUHM boosted thief skills. Focus on Open Locks and Find Traps (bard handles Pick Pocket) with leftover points into Set Snares.

    I/T gets Dex increases, probably Str.
    I/C gets Wis increases.
    Bard gets Cha increases (their primary job is to cheerlead and be pretty, after all).

    Bard focus on Longbow, Scimitars, maybe Flails before moving into TWF for BG2.
    I/T focus on Shortbow, Daggers, Staves (for future Staff o' Striking backstabs and a blunt option via Staff Mace +2) before, again, TWF.
    I/C focus on Slings and Maces. They can get Reflection Shield and Shield of Balduran in BG2 as necessary.

    Early tactics:

    Sleep/Command spam - Both are fantastic all the way up to Cloakwood or so.
    Blind -> Set Snare just without HLA traps (honestly they may have fixed this, haven't checked in the new version, but it's stupid cool otherwise).

    Sanctuary to bypass annoying encounters (but gank the loot anyway).

    Wand spam (the two Gnomes using Luck boosted scorcher wands deal 48 damage average each over two rounds).

    Cheese Drizzt with Gnolls, because it's funny for him to be killed by lowly gnolls, but also to skip the rep drop.

    Animate Dead spam - Bolstered by a Bard and Hasted, five of these suckers can cause, and tank, some serious damage. Skeletons can handle sirines, ghasts, carrion crawlers, and any extra basilisks. Familiar scouting blue NPCs doesn't trigger their auto chats, allowing the undead to get the drop on them early, and for the Cat it's able to hide away from regular spawns too.

    Poly self shenanigans with Fireshields, MI, Stoneskins (all three can do it eventually, so they can cycle between rest periods. Anything that deals piercing damage can't hurt the jelly at all, up to and including Pit Fiends, but also notably trolls. Basic MI/Stoneskins can handle most other things well enough until PfMW).

    Multiple Webs + one guy Polyself Spider (if they haven't fixed Cleric sequencers with Polyself then ideally a Spider with a +3 magic hammer with 18/50 strength, I miss you 5 APR sling wielding spidergatling) to murder all the trapped little victims.
    Basic AOE nuking (supported by Bardic luck for extra damage, naturally).

    MMMs against anything traditionally resistant to conventional murder tactics, probably up to and including finishing off Sarevok after luring him into Snares.

    Actually that sounds interesting enough I'm going to start a run through now, with three half elves with keepered in kits. Les enfants terrible, Triplets of Bhaal.
    It is as if we've both been playing totally different games. Most of those things are cleverer than what I'd come up with.

  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 418
    For me backstabbing was never a thing , i rather buff bless/chant/haste on my party rush in and murder everything in 10 rounds.

    to know then to do this i have my mages stack up on invisibility , its way more safe then sneaking.

    so yeah then i have a thief/mage its just to have someone pick locks and find traps..and to hold something else than a bloody sling.

  • malachi151malachi151 Member Posts: 152
    This gives me ideas on how to play Skald. Instead of staying out of the way and just singing, I think using Stoneskin & Fireshields and singing while baiting enemies sounds like a plan.

    Pantalion
  • madmangonemadmadmangonemad Member Posts: 5
    edited November 2017
    I hate using haste because it makes my party tired too quickly, and i don't like the idea of resting a lot of times in the same area/dungeon.

    BorekJoenSo
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