I have 3 armor class. How did they hit me?

JCPheonix

I have armor class 7 plus dexterity mod - 4, making the new armor class 3. So the enemy needs to roll a 17 in order to hit me, right? The enemy my rolled a 15 or 14 and still hit me. How did he hit me?

Grond0

You're ignoring that enemies have different abilities. A basic one hit dice enemy like a skeleton would have a THAC0 of 20, i.e. would require 20 to hit AC 0 and therefore 17 to hit AC 3. However, as enemies get more hit dice their THAC0 improves (just as yours does as you go up levels. Something like an ogre for instance would have a THAC0 of 14 (17 because it has 4 hit dice and a further 3 because of high strength) and would therefore only need an 11 to hit you. There are plenty of enemies with far better THAC0s than that, who would only miss you with a 1 (a critical miss always misses irrespective of THAC0).

There are a lot of further complications related to AC, e.g. some weapons are better at hitting particular types of armor than others and there is equipment that can give you a better defense against particular types of weapons. However, you don't need to get into those details to play the game.

ThacoBell

Depends on the enemies' THACO (To-hit-armor-class-0). Its not just about dice rolls, as strenght and THACO modify your values, which makes required rolls to hit lower than the un-modified standard. Say an enemy has a THACO of 15, they would need a roll of 15 or higher, to hit something that has an armor class of 0. Strength adds numbers to rolls as well.

JCPheonix

I believe the enemy still hit me with a roll of 15 after applying the THACO attack bonus. (ex. 14+1) What's up with that?

JCPheonix

Grond0 said:

You're ignoring that enemies have different abilities. A basic one hit dice enemy like a skeleton would have a THAC0 of 20, i.e. would require 20 to hit AC 0 and therefore 17 to hit AC 3. However, as enemies get more hit dice their THAC0 improves (just as yours does as you go up levels. Something like an ogre for instance would have a THAC0 of 14 (17 because it has 4 hit dice and a further 3 because of high strength) and would therefore only need an 11 to hit you. There are plenty of enemies with far better THAC0s than that, who would only miss you with a 1 (a critical miss always misses irrespective of THAC0).

There are a lot of further complications related to AC, e.g. some weapons are better at hitting particular types of armor than others and there is equipment that can give you a better defense against particular types of weapons. However, you don't need to get into those details to play the game.

What do you mean by 4 hit dice?

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Grond0

Monsters' abilities (such as THAC0 and saving throws) are determined by the number of hit dice they have. That's pretty much the equivalent of levels for a character, so a 4 HD monster would generally have the same THAC0 as a level 4 fighter.

JCPheonix

subtledoctor said:

If your AC is 3, enemies need a 17 to hit you. But if the enemy has 4 hit dice, the number it needs to hit you is reduced by 3. So that enemy only needs to roll a 14 to hit you.

"Hit Dice" is basically the same as "level." Your Fighter might be 10th level, and you might fight a monster with 10 hit dice. Effectively, that means it has the combat abilities of a 10th level Fighter - in addition to its natural characteristics and abilities.

So if your AC is 3 and you fight a 10-hit dice monster, it would only need to roll a 7 to hit you.

Ohhh.

when theyre fighting you,
What is X in the hit roll attack equation, 10 + X = Y?

tbone1

Remember, this all goes back to the pencil-and-paper Dungeons and Dragons game. T simulate the randomness of combat, you would roll a twenty-sided die, while factoring in your THAC0 (which depends on class, level, strength, etc) and the enemy's armor class.

All I can say is, we got VERY good at doing arithmetic in our heads back in the day.

BelgarathMTH

All this is why AC3 is a horrible armor class. Any strong enemy is going to cut through that as though you were wearing tissue paper. I don't start to feel really armored and comfortable in melee until at least AC -5. And an enemy like Sarevok will still seem to be ignoring *that* and hitting with every swing.

sarevok57

JCPheonix said:

subtledoctor said:

If your AC is 3, enemies need a 17 to hit you. But if the enemy has 4 hit dice, the number it needs to hit you is reduced by 3. So that enemy only needs to roll a 14 to hit you.

"Hit Dice" is basically the same as "level." Your Fighter might be 10th level, and you might fight a monster with 10 hit dice. Effectively, that means it has the combat abilities of a 10th level Fighter - in addition to its natural characteristics and abilities.

So if your AC is 3 and you fight a 10-hit dice monster, it would only need to roll a 7 to hit you.

Ohhh.

when theyre fighting you,
What is X in the hit roll attack equation, 10 + X = Y?

this is where things get kind of confusing, bg2 implemented the "X" variant into the attack rolls to make them look cool i guess? anyway, here is the break down:

the "10" represents the 1-20 roll the game makes known as the attack roll

the "X" represents your Base thac0 minus your thaco score ( so for example, if you are a level 3 fighter with 17 strength using a longsword with 2 proficiency points your base thac0 would be 18 and your thac0 would be 16) so after all the calculation the "X" would show up as a +2 ( 1 for strength and 1 for proficiency ) AND to top off all the madness if you have something that gives you a bonus ( like racial enemy for example) this also gets added to your "X" variant

i dont know why bg2 implemented the thac0 calculation back in '99 since it does make things more confusing to figure out, but that is how it is

so to make things as easy as possible, the lower the AC and the lower the thac0 the better

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UnderstandMouseMagic

I just look at the pictures.
(I don't even know how to get the dice rolls displayed, how embarrassing is that?)

And yes I know the animations are not reflective of what's actually happening.
But it'll do.
You soon find out if it's all gone wrong!!

And anyway, if you use a 20 sided dice and it falls on the carpet, how on earth do you decide what number is "up"?
That must cause a lot of fights.

tbone1

@UnderstandMouseMagic On floor = reroll or worst value, per dungeon master’s house rule. (Generally a reroll).

Pantalion

subtledoctor said:

You're making it way too complicated. Your thac0 is the number you want to reach. To land a hit, you roll a d20 and add the opponent's AC. That's it.

A 4-hit dice ogre has thac0 17, and you have AC 3. The formula is:

[ roll + AC = thac0 ]
[ x + 3 = 17 ]

So the ogre needs to roll a 14 to hit.

You also add any other bonuses like stats proficiency, magic, etc. to your roll. So the more complicated version is... still not that complicated:

[ roll + AC + STR + bonus = thac0 ]
[ x + 3 + 3 + 1 = 17 ]

So an ogre with 18/00 STR and a sword +1 needs to roll a 10.

I may be am constantly sleep deprived oh sweet Buddha please help me, but isn't the "+X" dice roll in combat being asked about the combat modifiers? Wielding a bow in melee gives 'D20 "-X" 16: Miss' in the roll information, for example?

So Pan has 18/00 Strength, swings a +5 club without proficiency (who the heck uses clubs?), the roll would be 1D20 [+Strength +5 -Non-Proficiency] and the end roll is compared with THAC0?

UnderstandMouseMagic

tbone1 said:

@UnderstandMouseMagic On floor = reroll or worst value, per dungeon master’s house rule. (Generally a reroll).

"re-roll"??
"worst value"?????

When it's important and you can argue for hours before throwing the board or whatever across the room before storming out?
Have you ever seen Monopoly being played in my house?

(it's almost as if there are rules, civilised behavior, something less than all out war...the very idea, and as for RISK, don't even go there)

tbone1

The rules are stated and agreed to be understood before the campaign starts. Eliminates whinging. Well, reduces it slightly.

My wife and I played PnP back in the day, so we took the same approach with Monopoly, in that there are agreed upon house rules, and all need to agree to follow them. Those who don’t like it can register a formal complaint with The Department of Get Over Yourself.

UnderstandMouseMagic

tbone1 said:

The rules are stated and agreed to be understood before the campaign starts. Eliminates whinging. Well, reduces it slightly.

My wife and I played PnP back in the day, so we took the same approach with Monopoly, in that there are agreed upon house rules, and all need to agree to follow them. Those who don’t like it can register a formal complaint with The Department of Get Over Yourself.

Whinging? You call it whinging when a game of Monopoly a few years back involving my sister ended up with us not seeing her for a year.
(as they say there's always a silver lining and nothing got broken, so good result all round I'd say)

When RISK gets taken out the only strategy worth thinking about is how drunk you can get and how quickly. It's a race between watching your little plastic figures get decimated by the b'stard invading and not caring because you can't see straight.
It would be fair to say we are quite a volatile family.

Hey ho, Christmas is coming and the geese are gatting fat............

tbone1

@UnderstandMouseMagic Still beats politics, which turns the Thanksgivin* turkey to ashes in my mouth

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