IWD's Greatness Compared to Baldur's Gate - What Could Have Made it the Better Game?
HaHaCharade
Member Posts: 1,644
Over the past few weeks (ok, ok, months... I'm slow at these things) I've been enjoying Icewind Dale as I await Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition to be released. I have to say, I *love* this game. The frozen north, the music, the landscapes, the sense of adventure, the creative license to craft an entire party and write their back stories, great voice acting from Hrothgar, to Kresselack the Black Wolf, to Yxunomei, to narration work done by Charles Emerson Winchester the Third (aka David Ogden Stiers).
I think this game has a more purely adventurous feel then Baldur's Gate. And I can honestly same sometimes I enjoy it more. I'm sure I'm in the minority there.
I honestly don't think it will happen... but I do hope that Icewind Dale will have a shot at an Enhanced Edition. I think it certainly deserves one.
I do think there's some things that could have made this game *better* then Baldur's Gate (you heard me!). I'm sure not all will agree, but here's my two cents on what could have been done differently:
1) More Content Between Dungeon Areas - Despite its strong points, the game had a plot train / perpetual dungeon-crawl feel. I would have personally loved if when you agreed to find the missing caravan for Hrothgar in Easthaven, that you had a larger area of land to scout out before locating it. Maybe a whole map region or two, with some of their own sub-plots or even clues to the evil that was beginning to plague the region. Additionally, how about some overland travel areas inbetween dungeon locations, ala Baldur's Gate? It's weird that I can march 3 days to Dragon's Eye and never get an encounter along the way -- The journey there should be half the adventure. This is the Spine of the World, isn't it?
2) Re-Worked Expansions - Trials of the Luremaster sucked. Why have an expansion that takes you *out* of Icewind Dale and the Spine of the World. It's such a vast area, the fact that you're teleported from the region for an adventure seemed like a cop-out to me. Additionally, while I liked some aspects of Heart of Winter, I thought the whole Barbarian seeing you in his dreams and coming to Kuldahar seemed forced. I would have preferred just an added map where you find adventure (ala the Sword Coast expansion in BG) rather than someone seeking you out as the "Chosen Ones".
3) More Content/Options for an Evil Party - Icewind Dale is geared for a good party, period. Sure there's a fair amount of items only usable by "non-good" characters, and some snarky dialog options, but that's about where it ends. Many times the narrator addresses your party as "Would-be Heroes". It makes playing non-good characters a non-plus. Address the party as Adventurers and drop the whole "Heroes of the Ten Towns" thing.
4) A Reduction of Conlan's Magical Item Inventory - I've said this in other posts and I'm sticking to it. This dude should be a king of a nation, not a blacksmith in Icewind Dale -- Look at his wealth! Put some of these items in random dungeons and *greatly* reduce his inventory. I know money needs to be a viable resource ( @Tanthalas made a good point here on an early post about this very thing), but it still can be without so many magical trappings for sale here. Things are expensive enough as it is in the game. Which leads to my next point...
5) Make it a Bit Easier to Make Money - Don't eliminate the challenge, but money should come a bit easier than it does. Why do none of the goblins in the Kuldahar Pass drop any coin? Things like that always bothered me. If you added more content between dungeon areas, money of course would also likely be easier to come by.
6) Orrick's Ever-Changing Inventory - STOP IT.
7) Add Back Missing/Cut Content - @Camdawg has done a great job of doing this with his "Unfinished Business" mod which I've just recently installed. Some of the content (especially the Paladin quest in Dorn's Deep) really adds to the game and helps flesh it out. Additionally, some of the items that are written for the game but are not obtainable in the game, are great. Bracers of AC 2 for a mage? Yes Please! Beats the AC 6 bracers you can get otherwise.
8) Get More Creative and Less Ridiculous With Items - I believe that people want items that are well thought through and interesting. For example, I'd much rather see a "Snow Maiden's Reaver" then a "Bastard Sword: +3 Incinerator". Why? Because of its backstory and name. Some of the items in Icewind Dale are just lacking in the creativity department (Long Sword of Action +4?). Additionally, the balance of some items was pretty bad. HoW made some changes here to try to balance this out, because they were VERY OP (Ring of the Warrior Thief was *ridiculous*).
9) The Random Treasure Debate - I admit, Random Treasure has grown on me. I think it can be tedious to get what you want, but it certainly makes each party a bit different and adds to replayability. I will pass on changes here.
10) More Weather Effects - Ok it probably doesn't rain in Icewind Dale, but how about some heavier snow - or maybe even near-white out Snowfall. That would have been cool.
There it is. My personal recipe to make Icewind Dale the better of the Infinity Engine games. It will never have the NPC banter, romances, or some of the unique and awesome things that make Baldur's Gate so great, but adding in your own creativity I think can make up for this a lot.
Sorry for the book - I'd also be interested to see other thoughts on what could have made IWD better.
I think this game has a more purely adventurous feel then Baldur's Gate. And I can honestly same sometimes I enjoy it more. I'm sure I'm in the minority there.
I honestly don't think it will happen... but I do hope that Icewind Dale will have a shot at an Enhanced Edition. I think it certainly deserves one.
I do think there's some things that could have made this game *better* then Baldur's Gate (you heard me!). I'm sure not all will agree, but here's my two cents on what could have been done differently:
1) More Content Between Dungeon Areas - Despite its strong points, the game had a plot train / perpetual dungeon-crawl feel. I would have personally loved if when you agreed to find the missing caravan for Hrothgar in Easthaven, that you had a larger area of land to scout out before locating it. Maybe a whole map region or two, with some of their own sub-plots or even clues to the evil that was beginning to plague the region. Additionally, how about some overland travel areas inbetween dungeon locations, ala Baldur's Gate? It's weird that I can march 3 days to Dragon's Eye and never get an encounter along the way -- The journey there should be half the adventure. This is the Spine of the World, isn't it?
2) Re-Worked Expansions - Trials of the Luremaster sucked. Why have an expansion that takes you *out* of Icewind Dale and the Spine of the World. It's such a vast area, the fact that you're teleported from the region for an adventure seemed like a cop-out to me. Additionally, while I liked some aspects of Heart of Winter, I thought the whole Barbarian seeing you in his dreams and coming to Kuldahar seemed forced. I would have preferred just an added map where you find adventure (ala the Sword Coast expansion in BG) rather than someone seeking you out as the "Chosen Ones".
3) More Content/Options for an Evil Party - Icewind Dale is geared for a good party, period. Sure there's a fair amount of items only usable by "non-good" characters, and some snarky dialog options, but that's about where it ends. Many times the narrator addresses your party as "Would-be Heroes". It makes playing non-good characters a non-plus. Address the party as Adventurers and drop the whole "Heroes of the Ten Towns" thing.
4) A Reduction of Conlan's Magical Item Inventory - I've said this in other posts and I'm sticking to it. This dude should be a king of a nation, not a blacksmith in Icewind Dale -- Look at his wealth! Put some of these items in random dungeons and *greatly* reduce his inventory. I know money needs to be a viable resource ( @Tanthalas made a good point here on an early post about this very thing), but it still can be without so many magical trappings for sale here. Things are expensive enough as it is in the game. Which leads to my next point...
5) Make it a Bit Easier to Make Money - Don't eliminate the challenge, but money should come a bit easier than it does. Why do none of the goblins in the Kuldahar Pass drop any coin? Things like that always bothered me. If you added more content between dungeon areas, money of course would also likely be easier to come by.
6) Orrick's Ever-Changing Inventory - STOP IT.
7) Add Back Missing/Cut Content - @Camdawg has done a great job of doing this with his "Unfinished Business" mod which I've just recently installed. Some of the content (especially the Paladin quest in Dorn's Deep) really adds to the game and helps flesh it out. Additionally, some of the items that are written for the game but are not obtainable in the game, are great. Bracers of AC 2 for a mage? Yes Please! Beats the AC 6 bracers you can get otherwise.
8) Get More Creative and Less Ridiculous With Items - I believe that people want items that are well thought through and interesting. For example, I'd much rather see a "Snow Maiden's Reaver" then a "Bastard Sword: +3 Incinerator". Why? Because of its backstory and name. Some of the items in Icewind Dale are just lacking in the creativity department (Long Sword of Action +4?). Additionally, the balance of some items was pretty bad. HoW made some changes here to try to balance this out, because they were VERY OP (Ring of the Warrior Thief was *ridiculous*).
9) The Random Treasure Debate - I admit, Random Treasure has grown on me. I think it can be tedious to get what you want, but it certainly makes each party a bit different and adds to replayability. I will pass on changes here.
10) More Weather Effects - Ok it probably doesn't rain in Icewind Dale, but how about some heavier snow - or maybe even near-white out Snowfall. That would have been cool.
There it is. My personal recipe to make Icewind Dale the better of the Infinity Engine games. It will never have the NPC banter, romances, or some of the unique and awesome things that make Baldur's Gate so great, but adding in your own creativity I think can make up for this a lot.
Sorry for the book - I'd also be interested to see other thoughts on what could have made IWD better.
11
Comments
More wilderness areas to wander through would be pretty awesome, but I think you could make the same case for any game except BG. The major problem with Conlan's inventory is just that the items are ridiculously overpriced. You've got a slew of +3 weapons (with great stories, sure) that are priced in the 25k+ range, whereas they run a more reasonable 10-15k in BG/BG2. The rep bonuses you can get in BG/BG2 make them even more reasonable at shops, which is an advantage you don't get in IWD. DavidW coded up a component to keep all of his previous inventory available throughout the game for IWD-in-BG2, which I'm going to add to the next version of IWD Tweaks. Thanks, but a lot of the credit here has to go to JE Sawyer, one of the original IWD devs. He allowed me to pester him with lots of questions so I could develop the content, particularly with the Voice. Yeah, most of the u* items are just items for the sake of variety in the random drop tables. On balance I find the items (and their descriptions) far more compelling than any other IE game though.
Personally I feel that you don't need to compromise RP and plot to have a great sense of adventure, in fact, these games work best when all of those components come together.
@CamDawg
The quests were awesome, so another thanks from me as well. Even if one of the devs was a good source of information, somebody had to put it in, so thanks!
It's more or less impossible to go through file by file and determine if something's used (especially since there are so many leftover BG resources present), so I rely a lot on tools like NI that can give a pretty good first-order approximation. It didn't flag these since they're "used" by the character files. Like @HeroicSpur and @Cyhort mention above, they were designed from the outset to be different in flavor from the BG series. Kulyok's IWD NPC is a pretty good hack to get a party w/ banter into regular IWD, and @DavidW and I have a pretty ambitious conversion project to bring IWD into the BG2 engine with the insightful name of IWD-in-BG2. It allows for all sorts of goodness like NPCs, kits, sorcerers, dual-wielding and all the other goodies that come with the BG2 engine. The current version (7.13) is pretty solid, and it supports all of my IWD mods and IWD NPCs.
In regards to More Content Between Dungeon Areas; this is something that I absolutely loved from BG, the sense of exploration and truly setting off on a quest (rather then just being dumped into the next location), that was missing from IWD and BG2. As the NPC mod points out (I think its Severn) its called Icewind DALE not Icewind CAVES. Heck I wouldn't mind if there were substantially less dungeon and more windswept tundra and winding mountain paths; more expansiveness, less claustrophobia inducing crawls. This goes well with the reworked expansions I feel, make the expansion content a more natural part of adventuring in Icewind Dale. On a related note, I'd love to see more Kresseleck the Black Wolf, he's such a cool/intimidating character with fantastic voice acting.
Speaking of NPCs: while I do appreciate that its a different game, with a slightly different style to BG, I think it could really benefit from some NPCs to join your party. The storyline (which I think is quite good, better than BG2, if not as good as BG1), would be significantly enhanced from a Nella-like character, someone who actually attaches your party to what's happening to Kuldahar. Other NPCs that I would find interesting: There's a throw away interaction in Easthaven if you talk to a townsperson with a dwarf, about a dwarven expedition to reclaim Dorn's Deep; actually have a dwarf with that as their goal and purpose for joining your little group would be also deepen the story. A fighter/caravan guard near death outside the Orc caves would fit in well. Somehow convince Aldwin to come with you, or maybe his cousin/brother. It would actually make more sense if Conlan came with you - of course then they'd have to implement an alternative blacksmith, which might actually be an easy "fix" for the OP's 4th point. Similar you could have an Illmater priest come with you searching for mother Eugine. It would give the whole story more purpose if you're party had a reason for going on it besides "we're stuck in Kalduhar/Its the good think do." In an enhanced edition I could imagine the possibility of 7 or 8 NPCs, which you could then complement/replace with you own created PCs. Such that you could play with all NPCs including your main starting character (the "mysterious" messanger form Kuldahar perhaps?) to an all PC created party, so you could adapt a given game to have more sidequest/interjections/chatter/romances even or none an even more straight dungeon crawl if that was your desire.
Regarding 5 - I've never had this problem, maybe cause the only items I feel are worth buying at the Robes of Enfusing, the 2 bard items, and the Helm of the Trusted Defender/Rogues Cowl if my thief isn't a halfing for some reason.
8 - this is huge and always bugs me! Conlan carries a bunch of items with great names and amazing back stories (which as already mentioned he probably shouldn't), yet they're basically just standard +3 weapons with no interesting abilities or really point in getting them. Yet the most powerful/useful/loads of special abilities items have generic names (Long sword of action +4, Fast Flail +2, Battle Axe +2: Defender). This is the exact opposite of how it should be. The cool weapons should have the cool names/back-stories the generic +3s can just be Flail +3/Halberd +3. Oh also this game desperately needs some full plate mail to go with all the cool cloaks/rings of protection style items (Mitran's Cloak, Cloak of Storms, etc)
10 - Better weather effects: Yes Please! Especially with more open areas this would be an excellent addition (and the druid's call lighting ability would actually be useable, yay!) One of my favorite BG moments was when Minsc in Full plate and got hit by a bolt of lighting during a rain storm, I was so immersed in my exploring that when it happened I physically jolted in my chair. It was great!
Finally (if anyone actually read this far, thank you) an addition I'd like to see would be more "boss fights" at the ends of chapters, a la Yxunomei (she is great especially the creepy little girl leadup, although she could use more hitpoints, last play though, on hard difficulty, she died to a pair of critical hits for 64 damge). Lysan for instance, is a much easier fight than some of the skeleton rooms, yet is the last/boss fight of that area; buff her up substantial so she doesn't get decommissioned by simple hold/silence spell, and give her some decent support, an acolyte or two, winter wolves instead of yetis's, her own cold of cold style attack, etc. Give the Severed Hand a massive battle against a powerful Orc general, make it feel like we're actually fighting something that could have taken down an eleven stronghold. Then cut back the "towerlets" some, make it more about putting the elves to rest, solving the astrolabe puzzle, a kinda peaceful interlude, rather than further slogging through mindless undead. The Lich in Dorns deep could do with some buffing to, although he's probably much harder if you haven't already killed him a dozen times and don't know what you're doing, so maybe he's ok. Joril and his frost giants could also do with some powering up, specifically they're attack seem to be really easily interrupted, a hasted party goes through the entire cavern of them before the haste wears off, like a scythe through wheat. In 2e they were one of the more powerful giant subtype, yet their weaker Fire giant brethren make a credibal ToB level threat, that's just not fair.
I 100% Agree! I love Kresselack. Tony Jay was a kick ass voice actor. They add some info about him in some of the item descriptions in Icewind Dale 2. Check this one out:
"Saga of Wandering Sky"
--------------------
The saga of Wandering Sky is a tale of hearth and home told by many skalds of the North. The tale exemplifies the persistence and strength of the barbarian spirit.
When the legions of Arakon the Arch-Mage swept across Icewind Dale, the Tribe of the Bear was among the first of the tribes to meet his assault. Overwhelmed by the superior forces, the barbarians fought bravely, but they were no match for Arakon's forces. One of the tribe's eldest hunters and warriors, Hreidgar, was knocked unconscious during the battle, and he awoke to the sky tearing at his face and the remains of his fellows around him. Of his wife and children, there was no trace, and without a word, Hreidgar took up his great sword and followed the path of Arakon's army, determined to reclaim them and avenge the fallen.
Hreidgar was among the first to pledge his blade to the barbarian shaman Jerrod when he united the tribes against Arakon, and he served tirelessly in the great battles ahead, even on the darkest day when Arakon unleashed armies of the hells against Jerrod and the tribes. In every battle, Hreidgar and his greatsword were as one, howling like the wind as he drove his enemies back... and to their deaths. But when Arakon was at last defeated, no trace of Hreidgar's wife and child were to be found.
Hreidgar continued his search, and his journey of many years is said to have taken him across the great cliffs of the Reghed Glacier during the Season of Raining Spears, upon the Sea of Moving Ice where he sailed with the Tribe of the Great Whale and fought slavers from the south, and then to his final destination, the small town of Enholm's Point, where he stood with the handful of the town's defenders against the army of Kresselack the Black Wolf. It is said Hreidgar fought so fiercely that Kresselack conceded the field in honor of the warrior - but not before striking the fatal blow that would end the warrior's life.
Bleeding from numerous wounds, Hreidgar is said to have wandered north from Enholm's Point, traveling for many miles before collapsing to his knees. With the last of his strength, the old warrior plunged his blade into the ice and said he had finally found what he had been seeking. "Let the sky wander," he proclaimed, "for my travels are done."
When the townsfolk of Enholm's Point returned the next day to carry his body away, they found Hreidgar, but his blade had vanished. It is said that the blade now wanders as the sky wanders, finding its way to others with long journeys before them... and guiding them to their final destination, whatever it may be
I swear Yxunomei is tougher before you install Heart of Winter. She was a b*tch. They dumbed her down. Used to be the only things that would hit her was +3 weapons, so you had to use +2 arrows (which became +3 when fired from a bow that granted the other plus) or Conlan's Hammer (which can hit anything), or the Sword of Days which is a +3 Short Sword that pops in her level of Dragon's Eye sometimes (random). There's a mod out there somewhere that makes her hard again that I need to try and find.
Auril's Bane gives her immunity to +2 weapons as well, but it comes with the drawback of having to install Auril's Bane.
Thanks for the explanation. That always bothered me.
By the way, I dunno if you saw this post in the other thread its in (its kind of buried), but check out the screenshots of these videos you can get in IWD by trying to save before Hrothgar talks and then reloading... pretty crazy. Figured you'd get a kick out of them if you didn't know they existed already. It surprises me how much junk is in these games that we never see. lol.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/4325/have-you-ever-noticed-any-errors-in-the-baldurs-gate-or-icewind-dale-series-that-cracked-you-up#latest
BG moves at the pace the player wishes. IWD just throws heaps and heaps and heaps of enemies your way without anything to really break up the monotony of combat.
To tell you the truth, there's not much I can think of that would make IWD better. I like it just the way it is.
The expansions are another story:
1. Integrate better.
2. Make them, you know, actually make sense
3. DON'T FREAKING NERF YXUNOMEI, SERIOUSLY, WTF WAS UP WITH THAT. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW EPIC I FELT THE FIRST TIME I BEAT HER? PRETTY FREAKING EPIC. AND NOW. BAM. ALL THE CHALLENGE IS GONE. I LOOKED FORWARD TO THAT FIGHT EVERY DAMN PLAYTHROUGH, DAMMIT. IT'S ENOUGH TO MAKE ME JUST WANT TO UNINSTALL ALL THE DAMN EXPANSIONS AND PLAY VANILLA IWD, BUT HOW HAS SOME AWESOME SPELLS AND ONE OF MY CHARACTERS USES THE NEW VOICESETS SO NO DICE.
I was going to recommend for your next IWD Fixpack update to maybe take a look at the journal entry you get when you go to the Root Cellar Tavern and talk to the serving girl Amelia. She tells you of Aldwin possibly taking over the Shade of the Evening inn under dubious circumstances (You must talk to her first before you talk to Aldwin or you won't get the journal entry). After your conversation with her, you get a journal entry that calls her a wench and wonders how you can exploit the situation at the inn. Definitely an evil entry and you get it even if you don't choose the more snarky dialogue path. I was wondering if there was a less inflammatory entry possibly scripted but not used in-game for whatever reason. Or maybe they just got lazy on this one... lol.
The most important detail , in any game, is immersion - as long as you feel that your custom party is part of that world and that their actions affect it , it will be a cool game.
As for Amelia, yeah, it's got the journal entries swapped. You basically have five options from her dialogue there--one if you've already resolved the Evening Shade issue, two if you haven't heard her story (one evil, one non-evil), two if you have (one evil, one non-evil). The journal entry you mention is the evil option; the non-evil one reads:
Thanks! Yeah it also seems to update your journal with the evil option the minute you talk to her. If you scroll up in the conversation, the "Your Journal Has Been Updated" line happens right after she tells you how much of a jerk Aldwin is, but before you get to where you choose either the good or evil reply, so it seems like where it triggers might be an issue.