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Couple of lore questions regarding the divine.

LegendLegend Member Posts: 36
edited November 2017 in Role Playing
Hey there! Just a couple of lore related questions - I've tried to google around a little bit, but haven't really found anything. I thought maybe somebody well better read than myself here might be able to help me out a little!

Alright firstly - what exactly is divine magic in the Forgotten Realms? Is it actually.. magic? Or is it perhaps more akin to us (in real life) saying a prayer, and then something actually answering it? If so, doesn't it then follow that a load of 'common folk' would be able to use this divine 'magic', simply by saying a prayer? ... I'm just trying to get my head around what it is exactly.

Secondly, I suppose along the same lines.. I believe I heard that in later editions of D&D, a 'holy' character; cleric, paladin, etc. doesn't necessarily have to worship a particular diety, and instead can put their faith in something else entirely, such as a personal experience.. or something. Is this true? Or did I dream that up somewhere?

I'm asking, really, because I'd like one of my characters to be a Paladin - but I'm pretty against them having even some semblance of 'magical' ability..

Essentially I just want to roll a 'fighting-for-justice-protector-of-mankind' character.. but without any magical prowess at all, or even any history in a church or religion. Basically just a really nice guy, who doesn't give much credence to any particular diety. Can a paladin be that? I'm thinking maybe I ought to reroll them as a fighter, but a paladin's 'protectors of the innocent' description just fits so perfectly.

But anyway I don't want to ramble! Would be glad to hear anybody's thoughts!

Comments

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    1) Divine magic in the Realms, is magic given by the gods directly. It is a type of magic.
    The other type of magic is Arcane magic, which comes from the Weave, which is regulated by Mystra.
    There's also the Shadow Weave made by Shar, that was created as an alternative to the Weave.

    For divine magic to work, it needs the appropriate training, wisdom as well as knowing the correct words and gestures (somatic and verbal component).
    This is why common people cannot use divine magic with no effort but Clerics and Paladins can.
    As well as Druid/Rangers etc.

    2) What you're referring to comes 3(.5)E and those are the generic DnD rules, mainly for Greyhawk.
    In vanilla DnD 3.5E, you can be a Cleric/Paladin/Druid/Ranger of a cause.
    Getting divine spells from "goodness" or "darkness" and getting nature divine spells from "nature" and "spirits".
    In the Realms all divine casters must follow a deity to get spells. Even Druids, Rangers, Paladins etc.

    3) What you're describing sounds like a Fighter to be honest but if you want a Paladin with no magical abilities, go with Inquisitor.
    If it's a BG character, you can say that your Bhaalspawn essence powers your Inquisitor's abilities.
    Basically, your divine essence acts as the divine source for such abilities, you even get some of them in your dreams.

    Sarevok did the same more or less and the couple of Cleric Bhaalspawn you fight, have unspecified deities.
  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    edited November 2017
    Actually both divine and arcane magic work by the weave. If you notice in the real world, there's no magic and there's people running around debunking magic. Well the gods in AD&D maintain this weave and if they don't keep it up, there's no magic.

    Arcane magic is stuff you learn and do yourself, or sometimes it's genetic like sorcerer. But you tap into the weave directly and it's based on you doing an elaborate ritual you have to do just right.

    Divine magic is you meditating/praying and trying to focus on a deity. The entire spell is pre-made by the deity and so you don't have to do anything but receive it. But your ability is based on your psychic perceptions rather than your ability to memorize it. Shamans get their spells from powerful spirits instead. But each time they rest, they have to meditate deeply to receive the spells just like mages have to memorize their spells exactly.

    And also there's the issue of worshiping a force. Druids worship nature and some sources claim some deity gives them spells and druids don't realize. Then Fall-From-Grace in Planescape Torment worships "Experience" instead of a god and maybe something give her spells. It's unknown.

    Some AD&D material says you can simply worship a force and get a spell that way but it's unclear. The closest is the Undying Light style of warlock that channels from the positive material plane and gets spells that way. But warlocks are arcane and how they work hasn't really been fleshed out as they are more like divine casters doing arcane spells.

    Then there's monks and psionics who don't use the weave at all. They use their own natural abilities. We have this in the real world right here but people are far less powerful than in fiction.


  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    MakeAthkatlaGrtAgain said:

    Actually both divine and arcane magic work by the weave. If you notice in the real world, there's no magic and there's people running around debunking magic. Well the gods in AD&D maintain this weave and if they don't keep it up, there's no magic.

    This is untrue. In fact, it's the opposite. One god, Mystra, maintains the Weave and she does so explicitly to reign in the kind and amount of magic mortals can do (because the world was nearly completely destroyed by wizards in the past). Without the Weave, magic would be infinetely more powerful and creative. Like it was in the past, before Mystra lost faith in the responsibility of mortals and put a stop to their antics.
    MakeAthkatlaGrtAgain said:


    Some AD&D material says you can simply worship a force and get a spell that way but it's unclear.

    It's not unclear. That is the rules for most DnD settings as well as the generic ruleset. In the Forgotten Realms setting, however, it is not true. There you have to worship a divine power of some sort to receive divine magic.
  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    scriver said:

    MakeAthkatlaGrtAgain said:

    Actually both divine and arcane magic work by the weave. If you notice in the real world, there's no magic and there's people running around debunking magic. Well the gods in AD&D maintain this weave and if they don't keep it up, there's no magic.

    This is untrue. In fact, it's the opposite. One god, Mystra, maintains the Weave and she does so explicitly to reign in the kind and amount of magic mortals can do (because the world was nearly completely destroyed by wizards in the past). Without the Weave, magic would be infinetely more powerful and creative. Like it was in the past, before Mystra lost faith in the responsibility of mortals and put a stop to their antics.
    Well that's odd. I'd read arcane and divine magic both rely on The Weave. Arcane taps directly and divine gets spells premade from others. Though warlocks well are a bit odd.

    Well so I checked the main wiki again.
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Weave

    Then I see a bit on "raw magic".
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Raw_magic

    Okay that's what you're talking about. I never knew this.


    That wiki does say http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_magic
    "divine magic could not function without the Weave"


    scriver said:


    MakeAthkatlaGrtAgain said:


    Some AD&D material says you can simply worship a force and get a spell that way but it's unclear.

    It's not unclear. That is the rules for most DnD settings as well as the generic ruleset. In the Forgotten Realms setting, however, it is not true. There you have to worship a divine power of some sort to receive divine magic.
    This would seem odd that if you worship a force, you would get standard cleric-style, premade spells.

    If you channel energy from another plane to do magic, then there is no reason why such magic would be a specific set of spells. And no need for you to speak words and move your body for the spells.

    It would be more like each person gradually figures out how to use some sort of energy, not by copying a ritual from others, but from trial and error. And it would be like trying to learn psionics.
  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    scriver said:

    This is untrue. In fact, it's the opposite. One god, Mystra, maintains the Weave and she does so explicitly to reign in the kind and amount of magic mortals can do (because the world was nearly completely destroyed by wizards in the past). Without the Weave, magic would be infinetely more powerful and creative. Like it was in the past, before Mystra lost faith in the responsibility of mortals and put a stop to their antics.

    I was thinking about this and would this mean that a wild mage would be able to still cast in the zones where magic normally cannot:
    1) Anti-magic zones with are in the Watcher's Keep.
    2) And in the outlands planes as you get nearer and nearer to The Spire (but not up atop in Sigil), magic gradually ceases to work with higher level spells stopping first.

    Psionics should still function but perhaps wild magic may work.

    What do you think?

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