Full Disclosure, I play both games a ton. I am pretty unbiased I think, and really judge them both on their pros and cons.
But when you're so close minded that you're now arguing in favor of non-customizable content like the UI. We have no bridges to communicate anymore.
Luckily Trent said on the last stream (Dec 1) that tackling the ui and overhauling it to be customizable is his personal top goal for NWN1. I've been super impressed with where Beamdog wants to focus efforts and what they are leaving to the sands of time (the OC).
TLDR: NWN2 UI can't be made to look or function like NWN.
This post is so bad, I have to believe you're trolling - So this is my last reply to you and I'll try to be as polite as I can, but you have contributed absolutely zero to this conversation and you have zero idea what you're talking about.
I remember on the original forums, after NWN2 came out, there was this irrational vitriol towards it from a segment of the die hard NWN crowd.
It’s something I didn’t understand then and honestly have even less understanding of now that they are both old games.
Baratan the whole point is that the NWN2 UI is so moddable you can create a version of Guitar Hero. The implication being if you can do that you can do NWN as well.
And if we’re talking about customization I don’t see how this is a bad thing... at all.
Happy with vanilla? Don’t mod it. Want extra features? Mod away.
The problem do you know what? as I said before people and too tied to the past, when playing a game for 15-20 years (I give an example) without trying alternatives, there is a "distorted" vision of better and worse graphics for example or as in this case that NWN UI is better than the NWN "UI, and that's wrong!" and this closed, obtuse, selfish and uncooperative mentality creates overly conflicting thoughts and above all creates fractures in the community.Then for the last time we try to be mature and especially collaborative, we are in 2017 no more in 2002 we try to see the game for new users in 2017 and not only for the 2002 Fan-boys (I do not consider myself a fan-boy but I love NWN, and it was my first real game on D & D after a brief experience with Baldurs gate's 2 and from there I always went looking for a game that was close to the complexity that offered NWN).
I think some of you are overreacting. UI customization is not equivalent with the NWN2 UI specifically. The criticism was about the NWN2 UI rather than the concept of customizing and scripting UI features.
The NWN2 UI customization wasn't quite free form either so he might be correct that due to it's limitations it's possible you could never recreate certain specific behaviors of the NWN UI.
If you read the Obsidian Programmer blog you can probably pick up on a few hints that the UI customization and scripting was still unfinished when they stopped. It can't do everything even if you can do a lot with the custom gui panes as they are now.
I think what some people are trying to express is that they hope Beamdog does a better job of it.
You might be able to make the NWN2 interface look Like NWN1, but you can't make it function Like NWN1 - smooth and responsive rather than horribly laggy and unresponsive.
You might be able to make the NWN2 interface look Like NWN1, but you can't make it function Like NWN1 - smooth and responsive rather than horribly laggy and unresponsive.
Works fine for me. This is a meme blown out of control by people who don't play NWN2.
You might be able to make the NWN2 interface look Like NWN1, but you can't make it function Like NWN1 - smooth and responsive rather than horribly laggy and unresponsive.
I never had a problem with NWN2. I think it probably probably pushed a lot of graphics cards back when it came out...
Unfortunately when your argument is really just that people should enjoy something you do, more than something else which they prefer, then any attempt at discussion breaks down. Maybe some people prefer NWN2 by Obsidian, maybe some people prefer Sword Coast Legends by n-Space, maybe some people just like pie.
I think it’s just strange to argue against customization especially when the starting point it vanilla NWN. No matter what you have that. Why the vitriol against being able to have more if you want it?
I like the NWN radial menu a lot. The num pad doesn't get used much in games, and NWN did a good job of using this to quickly fly through the spell lists. It was quite nifty once you got used to it, and a big let down when NWN2 dropped it. But that was a different development team...
There does need to be a way to rebind the F1-F12 keys to what you want, though, then I would be happy.
I kind of like being able to see my surroundings even when the UI panels are on screen. But I do agree a UI update could be nice and make a big ever-present difference to gameplay. At least open up the ability for the community to customize the UI.
You might be able to make the NWN2 interface look Like NWN1, but you can't make it function Like NWN1 - smooth and responsive rather than horribly laggy and unresponsive.
I never had a problem with NWN2. I think it probably probably pushed a lot of graphics cards back when it came out...
But that was over a decade ago.
I played NWN2 about two months ago on a 2016 gaming PC. The interface was sluggish - e.g. when trying to switch weapon sets you can end up unarmed because of inadvertant double clicks, and trying to issue orders via the radial menu sometime failed to work at all. And the much vaunted casting spells from the hot bar is still broken, in that it can't disable spellcasting even when it should be, e.g. when shapeshifted.
You might be able to make the NWN2 interface look Like NWN1, but you can't make it function Like NWN1 - smooth and responsive rather than horribly laggy and unresponsive.
And what I wanted to hear, and it is a bit of my idea to the point of the discussion, to create an interface like that of NWN2 but with the aesthetics of NWN1 in such a way as to make the fealing of the game remain even though inserting some modernity like example icons of colored spell or other things yet.
You might be able to make the NWN2 interface look Like NWN1, but you can't make it function Like NWN1 - smooth and responsive rather than horribly laggy and unresponsive.
I never had a problem with NWN2. I think it probably probably pushed a lot of graphics cards back when it came out...
But that was over a decade ago.
I played NWN2 about two months ago on a 2016 gaming PC. The interface was sluggish - e.g. when trying to switch weapon sets you can end up unarmed because of inadvertant double clicks, and trying to issue orders via the radial menu sometime failed to work at all. And the much vaunted casting spells from the hot bar is still broken, in that it can't disable spellcasting even when it should be, e.g. when shapeshifted.
which pc do you use exactly? NWN2 used a slightly higher graphics card than NWN1, I remember that the first time I played I had to redo the PC from 0 to play, then i not have any more problems, I think your (and many others who then hated as NWN2 tea) is a problem of graphics card or PC not suitable, and clear guys that ... if you play with a windows 64 or xp decades ago you can not expect to play in the enternity, sooner or later you are forced to buy new devices to stay up to date, the problem is only this, we do not blame "but lagga, and slow, etc ..." because the problem is only yours and not the game, it was partly there were things that were not going to lost in NWN2 but the rest of the game like The UI or the spell quick bar system was not absolutely laggy or annoying to use I always felt good and even the allied AI party and control system was perfect, being able to give orders through a special tap without having to speak every time to the partner as in NWN1 and much better, but no .. no you do not go well only stubborn and as I said before and do not repeat it anymore, this happens when you play for 15 years at the same game without trying alternatives, have an open mind, do not remain closed minded, we are in 2017-18 no longer in 2002.
You might be able to make the NWN2 interface look Like NWN1, but you can't make it function Like NWN1 - smooth and responsive rather than horribly laggy and unresponsive.
I never had a problem with NWN2. I think it probably probably pushed a lot of graphics cards back when it came out...
But that was over a decade ago.
I played NWN2 about two months ago on a 2016 gaming PC. The interface was sluggish - e.g. when trying to switch weapon sets you can end up unarmed because of inadvertant double clicks, and trying to issue orders via the radial menu sometime failed to work at all. And the much vaunted casting spells from the hot bar is still broken, in that it can't disable spellcasting even when it should be, e.g. when shapeshifted.
Just off of this post I decided to load NWN2 (haven't played it in about two years, still have the original disks) onto my work machine which is an HP 450-a24 with a crappy integrated Intel video card... and the game runs fine.
Might I ask, what card do you have on your 2016 gaming PC?
Actually the problems with lag are with NWN2. There are a number of things which were done quite poorly and even with fixes and the best systems the animations in certain situations can seem extremely janky. The camera might have a seizure switching between multiple vantage points in a close quarter environment like an alleyway. The lighting and shadow system is also so bad that it can bring many modern systems to their knees in certain situations. There are PWs out there with posts about a recently added area and how laggy it is even though they have a monstrous gaming machine, the poorly optimized light/shadow effects are usually a culprit.
If you plan to play NWN2 extensively you have to use xp_bugfix and Skywing's Client Extension always running in the background just so that walking your character stays synced with the animation and doesn't hop and jitter everywhere.
By the way you can both still play NWN2 and admit that it's an exceptionally flawed game. One of the big draws is that you can play many custom classes and monster races in a way that is more integrated than NWN's workarounds. You can also unlock doors with a custom content GUI that uses clicks and turning your tools in a lock. You can disarm traps with a custom content GUI that simulates minesweeper and uses your skill check if you attempt to disarm either the trigger or the bomb or the other mechanisms. You can read and write books with custom content book textured pages. Using things like the AddFeat function allows builders to play with more advanced mechanics and simulate level up to get around limitations.
... yet the game is still extremely flawed and worse than NWN in many ways.
Actually the problems with lag are with NWN2. There are a number of things which were done quite poorly and even with fixes and the best systems the animations in certain situations can seem extremely janky. The camera might have a seizure switching between multiple vantage points in a close quarter environment like an alleyway. The lighting and shadow system is also so bad that it can bring many modern systems to their knees in certain situations. There are PWs out there with posts about a recently added area and how laggy it is even though they have a monstrous gaming machine, the poorly optimized light/shadow effects are usually a culprit.
If you plan to play NWN2 extensively you have to use xp_bugfix and Skywing's Client Extension always running in the background just so that walking your character stays synced with the animation and doesn't hop and jitter everywhere.
By the way you can both still play NWN2 and admit that it's an exceptionally flawed game. One of the big draws is that you can play many custom classes and monster races in a way that is more integrated than NWN's workarounds. You can also unlock doors with a custom content GUI that uses clicks and turning your tools in a lock. You can disarm traps with a custom content GUI that simulates minesweeper and uses your skill check if you attempt to disarm either the trigger or the bomb or the other mechanisms. You can read and write books with custom content book textured pages. Using things like the AddFeat function allows builders to play with more advanced mechanics and simulate level up to get around limitations.
... yet the game is still extremely flawed and worse than NWN in many ways.
I’m well aware that NWN2 is not a perfect game. I’m pretty agnostic about both NWN and NWN2. Neither game is perfect. I enjoyed playing both. Don’t really play either anymore. But I’m interested in how NWN:EE develops.
I hadn’t played any of the old IE games in years either but purchased and enjoyed all of them again. I also quite liked SOD.
But that’s kind of my whole point. We’re not talking about turning one game into the other. We’re talking about adding UI customization from one game to another.
It’s really not something to get worked up about, one way or the other.
And while I fully appreciate some people prefer one game to the other, I just notice there is a segment of the NWN community that turns their nose up at anything NWN2 related.
I believe that’s not a productive position to take because there are elements of the latter that could benefit the former without fundamentally altering the game... like UI customization.
In addition I prefer more the mini map in NWN2 that keep me always open the map as in NWN1, in addition to something else that does not has NWN1 and the mode bar that in NWN2 makes it easier to activate and deactivate different stances especially for the bard, and makes the use of the bars less frustrating, to say that, all those people who praise the NWN1 quickbars they are actually a little woody and cumbersome to use. NWN2 greatly simplifies the quality of life.
Not all are ingengeri of spaceships or scientists, it's not just to force people to love something. Even I have lived with NWN1 but some things could be improved to make life simpler insam I will repeat to the nausea, we are in 2017 not in 2002 we see NWN: EE as a game within the reach of Old and new players so the solution is find a compromise to make sure that they are all happy without penalizing each other.
And the much vaunted casting spells from the hot bar is still broken, in that it can't disable spellcasting even when it should be, e.g. when shapeshifted.
I don't really have a problem with the UI being customization (heck, I use a custom UI in NWN1 already)
But NWN2 does have a compounding bunch of problems that did dissuade me from playing it ever again, despite giving it multiple chances. I even beat the OC and played on a few PWs for a bit, and even got a bit into the various expansions and played some custom modules, including the guitar hero module.
But they all are really sluggish and the UI is slow to respond at the best of times, while in NWN I only ever had an issue if I was using the wrong audio driver or if I played on a laggy server.
These are actual problems that NWN2 had and it's doing your argument a disservice to dismiss them, Trinital. You are willing to overlook them, which is fine. I overlook a lot of flaws with NWN1 too.
Customizable UI would add a lot for PWs though, especially if we could do some of the stuff you showed with the NWN2 engine in it.
Generally speaking, I prefer the NWN1 UI, but I quite like NWN2's mode bar and quickcast menu. If those were added as options for NWN1, I would be a very happy man.
These are actual problems that NWN2 had and it's doing your argument a disservice to dismiss them, Trinital. You are willing to overlook them, which is fine. I overlook a lot of flaws with NWN1 too.
Nobody, well I at least hope nobody, is asking BD to lift NWN2's UI implementation wholesale. What I and others hope they do is to provide a similar degree of flexibility.
Yes, NWN2 had problems and suffered from some questionable design decisions. It's sad that some of the solid ideas they had get unjustly blamed for the poor implementation.
Purely on aesthetics I don't like the NWN2 interface. To minimalist and too much black. I like rustic scrolls that open with a crackle of aged parchment, and that kind of thing. The NWN2 interface would suit a science fiction game better.
I have to admit I was never a big fan of NWN2. Played it, tried to build in it, did some scripting for my buddies server. It just wasnt what I was hoping it would have been (an upgraded version of NWN1). But I can't understand why no one would want the ability to mod the UI. That was actually something NWN2 did right. And there is a lot of fun stuff you can do with it. Like adding a quick cast bar that everone keeps saying they wish NWN1 had. Smh. So yeah a customizable UI would be awesome.
I would rather have an interface that was well designed in the first place than have to faff around with it myself to make it usable. Haven't these people studied interface design at university? Why hire an expert then do the job yourself?
I would rather have an interface that was well designed in the first place than have to faff around with it myself to make it usable.
My wife loves flan and rice pudding. I can barely tolerate the latter and can't stand the former. Much like food preferences there is no one-size-fits all UI design that works for everybody. My tastes run to as much information in as little space as possible. Other folks find that much telemetry distracting.
Haven't these people studied interface design at university? Why hire an expert then do the job yourself?
Study, lol. And back when NWN was released making the assumption that game devs finished college was similarly laughable. Of course some did but at that time not doing college was the hip thing to do.
I have yet to find any game UI that didn't need at least some tweaking and I much prefer those that I can do a wholesale replacement on. Typically they opt for art over usability. No I really don't want blue flames rising from my skill bar (GW2 *eyeroll*) or massive decorative elements that have no function and provide no information (Wildstar, WoW, SW:TOR).
In other words: Not designed by people that had actual professional UI/UX training much less experience.
To anyone implying there is a perfect UI to beat all other UI's.. and that customization is not needed or not important as long as "The Perfect UI" is made.. (Totally ignoring custom widgets or ui's PW's and Modules may want to design as custom content).
Even if a perfect UI did exist, it would stand to reason that it would be different for different classes. You cannot tell me that the perfect fighter UI is also the perfect mage UI.
Even if a perfect UI did exist, it would stand to reason that it would be different for different classes. You cannot tell me that the perfect fighter UI is also the perfect mage UI.
I adored the Warhammer Online UI for just that reason. Diablo 3 even does a passable job of it.
An interface doesn't have to be perfect - just good enough for the job (and look nice). Learning it is part of the game.
The danger of custom interfaces is the developers don't care - "just throw in any old thing, the players are going to change it anyway".
As for education, I don't know about other countries, but no one in the UK can get a job in coding without at least a thee year university education - most have four (MSc).
Comments
But when you're so close minded that you're now arguing in favor of non-customizable content like the UI. We have no bridges to communicate anymore.
Luckily Trent said on the last stream (Dec 1) that tackling the ui and overhauling it to be customizable is his personal top goal for NWN1. I've been super impressed with where Beamdog wants to focus efforts and what they are leaving to the sands of time (the OC).
The NWN2 UI customization wasn't quite free form either so he might be correct that due to it's limitations it's possible you could never recreate certain specific behaviors of the NWN UI.
If you read the Obsidian Programmer blog you can probably pick up on a few hints that the UI customization and scripting was still unfinished when they stopped. It can't do everything even if you can do a lot with the custom gui panes as they are now.
I think what some people are trying to express is that they hope Beamdog does a better job of it.
But that was over a decade ago.
There does need to be a way to rebind the F1-F12 keys to what you want, though, then I would be happy.
Might I ask, what card do you have on your 2016 gaming PC?
If you plan to play NWN2 extensively you have to use xp_bugfix and Skywing's Client Extension always running in the background just so that walking your character stays synced with the animation and doesn't hop and jitter everywhere.
By the way you can both still play NWN2 and admit that it's an exceptionally flawed game. One of the big draws is that you can play many custom classes and monster races in a way that is more integrated than NWN's workarounds. You can also unlock doors with a custom content GUI that uses clicks and turning your tools in a lock. You can disarm traps with a custom content GUI that simulates minesweeper and uses your skill check if you attempt to disarm either the trigger or the bomb or the other mechanisms. You can read and write books with custom content book textured pages. Using things like the AddFeat function allows builders to play with more advanced mechanics and simulate level up to get around limitations.
... yet the game is still extremely flawed and worse than NWN in many ways.
I hadn’t played any of the old IE games in years either but purchased and enjoyed all of them again. I also quite liked SOD.
But that’s kind of my whole point. We’re not talking about turning one game into the other. We’re talking about adding UI customization from one game to another.
It’s really not something to get worked up about, one way or the other.
And while I fully appreciate some people prefer one game to the other, I just notice there is a segment of the NWN community that turns their nose up at anything NWN2 related.
I believe that’s not a productive position to take because there are elements of the latter that could benefit the former without fundamentally altering the game... like UI customization.
In addition I prefer more the mini map in NWN2 that keep me always open the map as in NWN1, in addition to something else that does not has NWN1 and the mode bar that in NWN2 makes it easier to activate and deactivate different stances especially for the bard, and makes the use of the bars less frustrating, to say that, all those people who praise the NWN1 quickbars they are actually a little woody and cumbersome to use. NWN2 greatly simplifies the quality of life.
Not all are ingengeri of spaceships or scientists, it's not just to force people to love something. Even I have lived with NWN1 but some things could be improved to make life simpler insam I will repeat to the nausea, we are in 2017 not in 2002 we see NWN: EE as a game within the reach of Old and new players so the solution is find a compromise to make sure that they are all happy without penalizing each other.
But NWN2 does have a compounding bunch of problems that did dissuade me from playing it ever again, despite giving it multiple chances. I even beat the OC and played on a few PWs for a bit, and even got a bit into the various expansions and played some custom modules, including the guitar hero module.
But they all are really sluggish and the UI is slow to respond at the best of times, while in NWN I only ever had an issue if I was using the wrong audio driver or if I played on a laggy server.
These are actual problems that NWN2 had and it's doing your argument a disservice to dismiss them, Trinital. You are willing to overlook them, which is fine. I overlook a lot of flaws with NWN1 too.
Customizable UI would add a lot for PWs though, especially if we could do some of the stuff you showed with the NWN2 engine in it.
Yes, NWN2 had problems and suffered from some questionable design decisions. It's sad that some of the solid ideas they had get unjustly blamed for the poor implementation.
I have yet to find any game UI that didn't need at least some tweaking and I much prefer those that I can do a wholesale replacement on. Typically they opt for art over usability. No I really don't want blue flames rising from my skill bar (GW2 *eyeroll*) or massive decorative elements that have no function and provide no information (Wildstar, WoW, SW:TOR).
In other words: Not designed by people that had actual professional UI/UX training much less experience.
:eyeroll:
The danger of custom interfaces is the developers don't care - "just throw in any old thing, the players are going to change it anyway".
As for education, I don't know about other countries, but no one in the UK can get a job in coding without at least a thee year university education - most have four (MSc).