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Need Fixed for Future Tilesets

TondenTonden Member Posts: 224
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1.


We need a fix for

In the past there were speedtree conversions
So the leaves of the trees were emitters instead of meshes, however the emitters pierce through fog
So you see the foliage even if it should be covered by fog

Could you Please help with this ?


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2.


We need fix for

So the engine could support multiple raise values for one terrain.
This way we could have multiple raised edge tiles for the different raised heights.


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Comments

  • shadguyshadguy Member Posts: 154
    I think I've seen your 2nd point mentioned in a few different threads. I thought I even saw Sen bring it up, but I can't find that particular post, or remember what name he registered with on these forums to look it up.

    Anyway, I thought it might help to illustrate/provide some background material. Sen published info on a system over here: https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/hakpak/tileset/sens-multiple-raise-system

    PHoD showed some of what can be done with it here: https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/hakpak/tileset/phod-s-e-n-terria

    For current capabilities, the toolset can work with what PHoD published just fine, but the edge tile system cannot handle the four variations on tile heights. So we end up with 1 of 4 possible height variations being handled correctly in game at the edge of areas.

    Sample screenie, in NWNEE (v1.69 behaves the same):

    The screenshot illustrates 2 of the 4 possible height variations. The remaining 2 break the same way as the one on the right in the screenshot.

    Now, I don't know if Sen's system is the ideal way to implement multi-height variations, but, for now, it's what we have. Having proper/full support for this or a similar capability with proper edge tile behavior is the ask, AFAIK.

    @Tonden did you know of any other issues with the tilesets done this way?

    @merricksdad published something as well, here: https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/hakpak/tileset/merricksdads-placeholder-tileset - I believe it is a similar concept but I haven't spent as much time with this particular work.

    -Dave
  • TondenTonden Member Posts: 224
    The problem is that you can only have 2 different heights in the edge 2da. If Beamdog could change it so we could have 4 or even more different heights per Terrain in the edge 2da then Sens tileset could be fixed in minutes a long with Merricksdads Tileset.

    This is something I have been wanting for a while now. I really wish Beamdog would fix this.
  • the_riblothe_riblo Member Posts: 26
    I had always anche issues about the Edge system of Aurora toolset and i always liked better the electron approach
    In the electron toolset of NWN2 you are able to build also a part of map outside the walkable area so instead of the straight [road/river/mountain/forest] going to the infinite and beyond you can design a twisty road leading to a city far in the horizon and so in, a sort of preview of the next map
    It would be Amazing if a revised Aurora toolset could let you choose if autogenerate the Edge or if you want to map It
  • SherincallSherincall Member Posts: 387
    Why not make your area larger. Instead of a 16x16, make it a 24x24, then use the extra 4 tiles on each side to design your own edge. Then just place invisible walls/triggers to limit it.
  • TondenTonden Member Posts: 224
    One could do that Sherincall but it would be much better if Beamdog would just fix the edge 2da.
  • shadguyshadguy Member Posts: 154
    Tonden said:

    One could do that Sherincall but it would be much better if Beamdog would just fix the edge 2da.

    I wouldn't say what they have now is broken; I'd say that the community has an enhancement suggestion arising out of pushing the boundaries of the existing engine. :smiley:

    -Dave
  • TondenTonden Member Posts: 224
    They did say they wanted to open the game up more so the community could do more.

    Well we need this fix to help take tilesets to the next level.
  • T0R0T0R0 Member Posts: 86
    How about giving us 5 (or more/less) heights (tiers) in the set_file (that we can define as z value) so a corresponding raise in the toolset will equal that z value. In other words tier1=5m, tier2=3m, tier3=2m, etc so the engine will give us a flat plane that lines up with that z value.. Then in the edge 2da, just add another notation , instead of "+" add more + to indicate which tier ... or at the very least, let that height column have more meaning than 0/1 (or -1)

    (Take all that with a grain of salt, I know nothing of the feasibility of such options)
  • Gribo2Gribo2 Member Posts: 17
    The current raise/lower system is +1/0/-1, that is, a tile can be 1 level higher, same or 1 level lower (down to 0 level). A +2/+1/0/-1/-2 system will do these 5 levels variation. Also, level 2 tiles are somehwat supported in the current (1.69) toolset. Some tiles with level 2 can be placed, while others cannot.
  • TondenTonden Member Posts: 224
    How much work would it be to change it so we have a +4/+3/+3/+1/0/-1/-2/-3/-4 ? This would give us a ton more freedom then we currently have. Plus there are already tilesets currently made in the community that could make use of this.
  • Gribo2Gribo2 Member Posts: 17
    The number of required tiles for this scheme grows exponentially.
  • the_riblothe_riblo Member Posts: 26
    This is why a "grey mapping area" like in NWN2 is better
    Yes the areas Will bè bigger and more heavy but a non walkable surrounding Will give a total control to build the surrounding of a map instead the "straight to the infinite" we have now
  • TondenTonden Member Posts: 224
    No I work with and create tilesets for NWN1 and I like tile base more and want it to stay tile based. If Beamdog can't make this change, which is the one thing I really really wanted (other then unlocking the camera so you can look up) then I will just have to do what Sherincall stated.
  • Gribo2Gribo2 Member Posts: 17
    Height maps have similar limitations. You can't really create cliffs in NWN2 by raising or lowering the ground, only by placing a cliff model.
  • the_riblothe_riblo Member Posts: 26
    Tonden said:

    No I work with and create tilesets for NWN1 and I like tile base more and want it to stay tile based. If Beamdog can't make this change, which is the one thing I really really wanted (other then unlocking the camera so you can look up) then I will just have to do what Sherincall stated.

    Tonden said:

    No I work with and create tilesets for NWN1 and I like tile base more and want it to stay tile based. If Beamdog can't make this change, which is the one thing I really really wanted (other then unlocking the camera so you can look up) then I will just have to do what Sherincall stated.

    I do like NWN tileset system and what i suggestione is not a NWN2 terrain deformation system in NWN1 but a mappable tile based area around the walkable area to give better control in how the beyond the border area will look
  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 992
    Tonden said:

    The problem is that you can only have 2 different heights in the edge 2da. If Beamdog could change it so we could have 4 or even more different heights per Terrain in the edge 2da then Sens tileset could be fixed in minutes a long with Merricksdads Tileset.

    This is something I have been wanting for a while now. I really wish Beamdog would fix this.

    This perhaps could be a Trello point @TrentOster ?
  • HimmelweissHimmelweiss Member Posts: 72
    edited February 2018

    Why not make your area larger. Instead of a 16x16, make it a 24x24, then use the extra 4 tiles on each side to design your own edge. Then just place invisible walls/triggers to limit it.

    Or if we really get Area preloading in then take 4 or 5 tiles in from the preloaded areas to show behind all four edges. This wouldn't work diagonally ofc.
    Such an option should be optional obviously since Areas won't always match up with the Area Size and preloading theese extra tiles probably will take some time.
    Well it is just a random idea.



    I also wouldn't mind to have an option to add additional tiles behind the edges which are simply non-walkable (similar to NWN2 but simply with just tiles).
    Would be actually quite cool and it would allow existing huge Modules to add awesome looking edges whenever needed without having to rebuild 500+ Areas inside of the walkable tiles.
  • tgxtgx Member Posts: 40
    I was playing a module just recently, and it felt odd that the camera would stop moving for me at the very edge of the tiles. Odd. I'd expected a modern take in the camera, one that floated and wasn't restricted by the actual layout of the land. But, no, the camera itself won't cross the bounds. Odd, but I guess that's what was default, back in the day.
  • NWN_TömlNWN_Töml Member Posts: 90
    I´m used to the tilebased system in NWN since many many years so i wouldnt need anything different.
  • shadguyshadguy Member Posts: 154
    @NWN_Töml , this is still tile-based. It just uses some fancier tiles that break on the edge of an area design - NWN currently can't distinguish between the various edge tiles to use in the depicted system.

    -Dave
  • TondenTonden Member Posts: 224
    The way the Edge 2da is currently set up is that you can't have more then 2 different heights per train type.

    So for example those screenshots are showing the round being raised 4 times. two different slop heights and two different cliff heights with them all working together.

    The problem is when you get to the edge of an area there is a Edge 2da telling the engine what edge tile to match up with witch tile is next to the edge of the area so it repeats that edge tile so you don't what what looks like a hole in the world, or looks like the work just stops, or is floating in air.

    Right now with the engine only supporting 2 different heights per terrain you can't have enough different edge tiles to support more then 2 different heights for one terrain.

    This is still tile based its just using more tiles to get nicer looking terrains/areas. But its nice to know by just adding a few different heights and mixing cliffs with slopes that you felt it looked like something other then tile base.

    There is so much this community has done and are still doing to make this game better. Those of use who have been doing this work have been hoping with Beamdog doing NWN-EE that they would open the game/ code up more so that we could fix some of the things we have already made but have our hands tied because of things being hard coded.

    So BeamDog Please help us CC to help make this game better for the community.
  • TondenTonden Member Posts: 224
    Are we any closer to getting more Heights per Terrain added to the Edge 2da yet ?
  • shadguyshadguy Member Posts: 154
    @Tonden , I don't see anything on the trello boards. The closest one might be: https://trello.com/c/Rhnmdtsr/42-update-tilesets

    If we can drum up support for the idea, maybe we can get that card amended to point at and include this thread, and/or get a new card added. Then folks can vote for the idea in hopes of getting it some attention in some future patch.

    I don't expect this is on the current roadmap for the first (Mar 27) release. I imagine BD is regressing on other more popular / locked down features for that release. The good news is there is always a chance longer term that stuff like this *may* get attention.

    -Dave
  • shadguyshadguy Member Posts: 154
    @Tonden , @Symphony added this thread to a trello card here: https://trello.com/c/ZqHAaQYT/58-customizable-disableable-edge-tiling - go vote and encourage others to do so as well!

    Thank you, Symphony!

    -Dave
  • TondenTonden Member Posts: 224
    Thanks @shadguy and @Symphony
  • QuevyQuevy Member Posts: 6
    I really hope that this will see the light sooner or later, they would be incredibly useful and beautiful.
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