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Shouldn't multiclass fall a little further behind single class in terms of level?

IntoTheDarknessIntoTheDarkness Member Posts: 118

I think multi class characters receive too much bonus with relatively little penalty; falling 1, or at most 2 levels behind single classed character. (in most instances only 1 level behind. the same amount of exp will make either level 7 fighter or level 6 fighter/theif, the latter being vastly superior, of course.)

Shouldn't the experience progression curve be adjusted so that they fall at least 3 levels behind single-class characters? I'm not suggesting to impose a penalty, but rather change the level progression rate to allow single class to advance faster.

As of now there is absolutely no merit to play a single classed character as a protagonist.


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Comments

  • ZaorZaor Member Posts: 69
    Kits. Pure casters. Role playing. I can think of a few reasons I would pick druid over druid/fighter, for instance.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Multiclasses already level way slower, 50% slower in each class for 2 classes, 66% slower for 3.
  • JalilyJalily Member Posts: 4,681
    @Mungri, I think what @IntoTheDarkness is getting at is that in practice, because of the exponential growth in XP requirements as you level, multi-classed characters are only ever a level or two behind single-classed characters in both or all of their classes.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Well jaheira ends up needing 6 million XP to reach 15 druid compared to 3 million for a single class.

    I usually have Jaheira, Jan and Aerie in BG2, and they get higher level spells very very slowly.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited November 2012
    You exaggerate.

    In BG1, theoretically, multiclasses are indeed stronger, except in practice more than half the game passes them by before they actually reach that level of power. You also have to understand that multiclassing would be significantly more difficult if everybody did it, it's a lot easier then you have single classed characters to rely on when you are at your most vulnerable. Dual-classes are even worse, especially if you try to get the most out of both classes instead of dualing at levels 1-3.
    Single classed fighters are old faithfuls, reliable from start to finish. Single classed clerics actually have a working (and very useful) Turn Undead. Single classed wizards and druids can reach level 5 spells. Finally, by making your own single class thief you can actually create a good backstabber on top of having someone to take care of thieving. Just makes sure to max your str and dex.

    BG2 introduces kits.
    Post edited by Nuin on
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    Level progression becomes linear around somewhere around level 10-12, so for most of BG2 multi-class characters will be falling more and more behind single class characters in terms of level.
  • randyroorandyroo Member Posts: 54
    it is only at the start of the game where the xp required per level seems to double causing the multiclasses to be only 1 level behind. note that this can equate to quite a substantial amount of hp at the start of the game.
    at the later level the single classes tend to speed ahead. this is particularly important for casters. a mage single class will need 1.5 million xp for 7th level spells (lvl 14) and 3 million for 9th level spells (lvl18).
    the multi class will require double!!! by the time the multiclass mage gets 3million xp and reaches 7th level spells the single class mage could also have gained 3million xp and gained 9th level spells.
    also by the time the dual class does reach 9th level spells it will have 6 million xp and probably be near the end of throne of bhaal.
    by the time the triple multi class fmt/fmc gets to 7th level mage spells (mage lvl 14) my single class mage would be at level 22 also the fmt/fmc requires 9 million xp for 9th level mage. even with tob xp caps thats not even possible.
    its a similar story for the other casters.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Multiclass characters get more HLAs, more versatility, and more overall power in most situations.

    In exchange they are not quite so specialised, and require a little more devotion to improving their level, they will access their next level of spells a little slower, their thief abilities or THAC0 will be a bit lower....

    I personally believe that Multiclassing leads to an unambiguously better character in the long term, especially if the arbitrary level cap is done away with, so they can even beat out the human's dual class advantage, but they do pay for that heavily, especially with the delayed spell access.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Dude, what is it with you and always questioning basic Dungeons and Dragons rules and foundation?
  • IntoTheDarknessIntoTheDarkness Member Posts: 118
    edited November 2012
    I havne't given much thought about BG2's latter
    Quartz said:

    Dude, what is it with you and always questioning basic Dungeons and Dragons rules and foundation?

    Why do you folks care? It's the only forum where people always go *check* on my previous posts to just throw sarcasm, and I don't appreciate such behavior when my threads were not of trolling purposes.

    I don't stay on this forum regularly and I will not meaninglessly post praises for the game or AD&D's merits just to stop people from questioning my motives. Again, why do you care, when I'm neither spamming the same topics over and over nor trolling without my reasons? I'm playing BG series as of this moment and if I feel there needs to be an improvement, I will post it to hear others opinion, though it seems hostilities ensue all the time.

    I understand many forumbee's love for the game and reluctance to make any changes but picking on my previous posts unrelated to this topic in the thread is not cool.

    There will be people who post on the forum just to express how amazing this game is. I've already done that countless times when I first played this game, and I don't consider those people paid advertising men, so probably I should be treated the same. I'm just expressing my concern for the game because I care. If my posts be nonsense, so be it and you should refute it with proper opinions.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,316
    edited November 2012

    I havne't given much thought about BG2's latter

    Quartz said:

    Dude, what is it with you and always questioning basic Dungeons and Dragons rules and foundation?

    Why do you folks care? It's the only forum where people always go *check* on my previous posts to just throw sarcasm, and I don't appreciate such behavior when my threads were not of trolling purposes.

    I don't stay on this forum regularly and I will not meaninglessly post praises for the game or AD&D's merits just to stop people from questioning my motives. Again, why do you care, when I'm neither spamming the same topics over and over nor trolling without my reasons? I'm playing BG series as of this moment and if I feel there needs to be an improvement, I will post it to hear others opinion, though it seems hostilities ensue all the time.

    I understand many forumbee's love for the game and reluctance to make any changes but picking on my previous posts unrelated to this topic in the thread is not cool.

    There will be people who post on the forum just to express how amazing this game is. I've already done that countless times when I first played this game, and I don't consider those people paid advertising men, so probably I should be treated the same. I'm just expressing my concern for the game because I care. If my posts be nonsense, so be it and you should refute it with proper opinions.
    Fine your post is nonsense as it would severely complicate the game even further and make it very unappealing to tablet players (who are likely going to be the biggest purchasers of this game).

    I'm guessing in order for someone to implement such a system you would either need to completely rework the current levelling structure, so that as any character gets to be a higher level the amounts of experience needed to gain to the next level get substancially larger each time (even more than they do currently). I don't really see this adding much in terms of balance to the game, because then the balance would just shift towards overpowered single classes (like the sorceror and blade) over say mage/thiefs and fighter/mages. It would also just leave players stuck at a level for long periods of time, which I'd say is a good way to keep them bored with their character (speaking a druid player this is an issue for druids from levels 13 to 15).

    Otherwise you'd need to give the multi-class character its own experience table for advancing both or all three of the classes it is based on, which would mean in the case of the manual new experience tables for every multi-class option. This especially is just adding to the games already complicated nature for new players.

    The final option would be the character in question somehow loses experience or gains less overall experience simply by being a multi-class character, to ensure that he stays sufficiently under-levelled according to these new arbitrary rules. Not a great solution either, but other than adding extra experience to you for being a single class character its all I've got to mechanically explain how you would even approach your proposal.

    In any case it would be difficult to implement given the existing experience system in the game, and frankly it would be a swift kick to the gonads of characters like Jaheira, Montaron, and Tiax. So I can't say I'm in favour of it.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    Why do you folks care? It's the only forum where people always go *check* on my previous posts to just throw sarcasm, and I don't appreciate such behavior when my threads were not of trolling purposes.

    Hah, I didn't check your previous posts. I don't even know how to do that on this forum. But it's hard to forget about the guy who made three threads now, "magic is overpowered" (which is just asking to be lynched), "magic should require spell components" (which is actually decently interesting, though it just wouldn't work at this point for Baldur's Gate unfortunately), and now this.

    Funny thing is? I actually agree with you that multi-classes are overpowered. There are very few disadvantages to being a multi-class, in the end. But I don't go around questioning these things because I'm humble enough to realize that it's all been played about a million times and people still enjoy it to this day, so by gum it must be enjoyable, and a game is meant to be enjoyable so I'll let people have their fun.

    There. Was that "sarcasm" and "trolling" for you?
  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560

    Why do you folks care? It's the only forum where people always go *check* on my previous posts to just throw sarcasm, and I don't appreciate such behavior when my threads were not of trolling purposes.

    Lemme ask you a question in return. Why are you surprised at the reaction when:

    - Every thread you've started is 'controversial' (to put it politely)
    - You don't participate in the broader community
    - You seemingly have no interest in any voice but your own. (You have as almost as many threads to your name as individual comments).

    I think the questions you raise are interesting, at least in a theoretical sense, but the way you're going about it is all wrong.

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729


    I think multi class characters receive too much bonus with relatively little penalty; falling 1, or at most 2 levels behind single classed character. (in most instances only 1 level behind. the same amount of exp will make either level 7 fighter or level 6 fighter/theif, the latter being vastly superior, of course.)

    Shouldn't the experience progression curve be adjusted so that they fall at least 3 levels behind single-class characters? I'm not suggesting to impose a penalty, but rather change the level progression rate to allow single class to advance faster.

    As of now there is absolutely no merit to play a single classed character as a protagonist.

    Er... yes there is, Grandmastery (especially now its back to the un-nerfed table in BGEE), Mage Specialisation, ability to use a kit for main class etc. etc.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    Er... yes there is, Grandmastery (especially now its back to the un-nerfed table in BGEE), Mage Specialisation, ability to use a kit for main class etc. etc.

    This. Although to your second point, Gnomes would like to say "hello."
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Quartz said:

    Er... yes there is, Grandmastery (especially now its back to the un-nerfed table in BGEE), Mage Specialisation, ability to use a kit for main class etc. etc.

    This. Although to your second point, Gnomes would like to say "hello."
    Indeed, but no necromancy, boo!
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    Indeed, but no necromancy, boo!

    image
  • TetraploidTetraploid Member Posts: 252
    Multi-class characters do seem to be relatively powerful, it's true, but there are lots of good things about single class characters too! For example, I very much favor single class clerics over the popular fighter/cleric option. Getting level 3 and 4 spells relatively earlier in the game makes things easier for your party, and a more powerful turn undead can be useful. Besides, clerics can already wear heavy armor and buff themselves into killing machines. Having fighter levels alongside that always feels to me more like 'because I can' than 'because it expands the roles my character can fill'. And from a roleplaying perspective, if I want to play a combination of fighter and cleric there's a class for that already: Paladin!
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2012
    If you want to completely cheese the game, remove the XP cap for multi classed characters, raise cap to level 50, say hello to my 50 fighter / 50 mage / 50 cleric or thief. And also with unnerfed thaco / multiclass grandmastery / true grandmastery / pnp spell progression tables for like 9 spell slots per level ...

    What's the OP gonna do? Cry and moan about how I'm cheesing through my own game simply because I love doing so? Or maybe call the police! *911 / 999 ... Zomg halpz me, mungri is cheating in a video game, ban him and throw him in jail or something!

    Anything about the original game that the developers here try to nerf will be removed in no time at all by modders. More long term fans would be pissed off than people who appreciate such changes.
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    OP - nothing is going to change for BG1 or BG2. Perhaps your suggestions should be geared towards to potential BG3?
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    Yeah, since BG3 is likely to use Edition Next, which is reportedly very customization-friendly, that's probably a better expenditure of energy.
  • ARKdeEREHARKdeEREH Member Posts: 531
    edited November 2012
    When Viconia (single class Cleric) and my PC (multi-class Fighter/Mage) make it to the level cap, Viconia is level 40, but my PC is always significantly less than level 20 in both classes. I can't remember his exact level at the level cap because he never stays that way for long before I start the next cycle of his levels, but I think he's around level 15 in both classes, maybe a little higher, but certainly less than 20. He definitely can't get anywhere near level 40 in either class, and certainly not in both!
  • IntoTheDarknessIntoTheDarkness Member Posts: 118
    edited November 2012
    I already made my points in the first reply. I will delete this rant.
    Post edited by IntoTheDarkness on
  • MechaliburMechalibur Member Posts: 265
    Lemernis said:

    Yeah, since BG3 is likely to use Edition Next, which is reportedly very customization-friendly, that's probably a better expenditure of energy.

    I wouldn't bet on that.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    I see that the OP and Quayle share a similar Charisma score.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,316
    Quartz said:

    I see that the OP and Quayle share a similar Charisma score.

    To be fair IRL I probably have the same charisma score lol.
  • IntoTheDarknessIntoTheDarkness Member Posts: 118
    edited November 2012
    Quartz said:

    I see that the OP and Quayle share a similar Charisma score.

    What's your problem with me?

    Insults only prove your immaturity. Just because I have a different viewpoint from most people on this forum doesn't mean you are allowed to throw mockeries. Don't you think you are being more inappropriate than the person you are making fun of for being inappropriate?

    I am not a brick lacking a sense of humor, but I'm sure you won't consent to hearing jokes directed against you from a complete stranger. I think you shouldn't do that.

    I have translated a few of EE news to a foreign gaming community before, and it seems I am prematurely judged by some people to be an anti fan of Baldur's Gate, complaining on the forum. While I love this game, I shouldn't have to prove it on this forum to gain favors and like count.
    Post edited by IntoTheDarkness on
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    What's your problem with me?

    Well, nothing in particular. I thought your whining about people daring to question you was pretty silly though. We all gain reputations after a while, myself included, so you shouldn't surprised when people start to assume things about you. Is it very fair? No, but it's human nature. Time to stop whining about it, be humble and improve yourself so that you can rise above it all. I used to have the same problem as you, so that's what I did. Works wonders.

    Insults only prove your immaturity. Just because I have a different viewpoint from most people on this forum doesn't mean you are allowed to throw mockeries. Don't you think you are being more inappropriate than the person you are making fun of for being inappropriate?

    Shit's sake. Didn't I say that I agreed with you on 2/3 of your threads, INCLUDING THIS ONE? I agree with you, that wasn't the reason I threw "mockeries." I did it to make a funny, and because I thought your whining about people judging you was pathetic. Nay, your opinions on the game I'm completely fine with ... your opinions on peoples' conduct that you deleted? Pretty pathetic.
    Oh, and I'm fully aware my comment was snarky. I tried to be more reasonable and you had NOTHING to say to it in response, so I figured I might as well.

    I am not a brick lacking a sense of humor, but I'm sure you won't consent to hearing jokes directed against you from a complete stranger. I think you shouldn't do that.

    Actually, I've put up with plenty of jokes directed against me. All the time. Real life, internet. It's part of life.

    I have translated a few of EE news to a foreign gaming community before, and it seems I am prematurely judged by some people to be an anti fan of Baldur's Gate, complaining on the forum. While I love this game, I shouldn't have to prove it on this forum to gain favors and like count.

    You shouldn't think about it so much. Let yourself shine through instead of worrying about what people think. Seriously.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,316
    Before IntoTheDark responds I'm just going to go out there and suggest in general we get back to the topic at hand, you know before this turns any uglier. I include myself in all of this I might add.
  • leyshjonoeleyshjonoe Member Posts: 59

    I'm playing BG series as of this moment and if I feel there needs to be an improvement, I will post it to hear others opinion, though it seems hostilities ensue all the time.

    Well, to be fair, posting this kind of thing is like finding a forum for a Monopoly game and complaining that the rules of Monopoly aren't fair and should be changed. An interesting discussion, fine, but not entirely relevant and the way you present it is as if you think the game should change. They have all sorts of restrictions on what they can change, even if they wanted to, andI think most people who are looking forward to this game are looking for it to be the game with the rules they know, warts and all.

    Maybe these things could be implemented in a mod, that might make some sense?
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