What's your favourite spellcaster class?
Rik_Kirtaniya
Member Posts: 1,742
Since each has its own strengths and weaknesses, it's not necessary that you choose the one which is most powerful, but rather the one which you like the most.
Please note:
1. I've only included the base classes but the terms include their respective kits as well, which is obvious.
2. I've not included Bards, since in that case I'd have to include Paladins and Rangers as well, and they are all quasi-casters.
3. While giving your opinion, please don't consider such exceptional cases as a certain obnoxious Red Wizard who's got an amulet that gives him additional spells. (In my opinion, it endangers the Balance, both of Toril and the game.) Just consider the actual classes.
Please note:
1. I've only included the base classes but the terms include their respective kits as well, which is obvious.
2. I've not included Bards, since in that case I'd have to include Paladins and Rangers as well, and they are all quasi-casters.
3. While giving your opinion, please don't consider such exceptional cases as a certain obnoxious Red Wizard who's got an amulet that gives him additional spells. (In my opinion, it endangers the Balance, both of Toril and the game.) Just consider the actual classes.
- What's your favourite spellcaster class?56 votes
- Cleric12.50%
- Druid5.36%
- Mage44.64%
- Sorcerer35.71%
- Shaman1.79%
5
Comments
2: Divine magic is far, far weaker than Arcane magic.
3: Edwin is actually kind of a wuss in terms of Charop. Divination might not be one of the top three schools in the game, but lacking it means pretty much any of the other arcane spellcasters could straight up ruin him if played competently.
But my true spellcasting love is warlock.
@Artona I would love for Warlocks to be an option in the IE games and NWN1.
Although now that I think about it, you get a cleric level every 450k XP and a mage level every 750k XP, but I think that means that roughly every 300k XP you're getting a level in one or the other.
Having said all that, I think cleric might be my favorite single class caster. It's an underrated class, IMnsHO, and some of those spells are just sneaky-good, particularly when you consider the armor, shields, and weapons they can use.
Playing a cleric just.. i dunno, it's more satisfying somehow.
Firstly, about True Sight. Edwin doesn't get True Sight because he's a conjurer, and for that same reason he already gets 1 additional spell per level from his kit. That is enough to compensate for lack of divination spells, and that is just as much any specialist mage deserves.
Secondly, he's not the only mage without rogue levels. There's Neera as well. Also, saying that is like saying Viconia is the only cleric who doesn't have mage or fighter levels. Besides, not having rogue levels gives him a faster level progression for the early to mid early parts of the game.
Then, regarding the Amulet of Power. Well, there's only one Amulet of Power and Edwin's amulet is far more powerful than it. Amulet of power gives you four things:
1.Vocalise, which Edwin can easily cast from one of his extra 2nd level spell slots,
2. Negative Plane Protection, obviously you're not going to melee a mage against vampires, so that use is restricted mainly to the fighter types,
3. A little magic resistance, oh well, there are a lot of sources of magic resistance and 5% isn't a huge thing,
4. Spellcasting time decreased by 1, that's the only significant thing, but Edwin can still use the Robe of Vecna.
Compared to that, 2 extra Horrid Wiltings, 2 extra PFMWs, 2 extra Time Stops, 2 extra Breaches, 2 extra Stoneskins, 2 extra Skull traps and even 2 extra Magic missiles, and so on, can just change the game pretty drastically. Really.
All these things considered, that 2 extra spells per level is definitely not what you can call a Fair trade.
Suppose Edwin didn't have his Amulet in the first place, would anyone bother at all to take an arrogant egomaniac like him into their party then? I believe, No. But Edwin has it for no other reason than because he's a Red Wizard. And that's what is unfair and imbalanced, for Edwin has no real talent without his Amulet. It's as if the player is being mocked, for however hard one may try, one can never make a protagonist mage more powerful than Edwin, without resorting to the condemned practice of cheating.
The significance and power of Edwin's amulet becomes clearly evident when you compare the situation when mages first get access to a particular spell level. While they can cast only 1 spell from that level at that time, Edwin, at the same time can already cast 4 spells from that level (1 extra due to specialisation and 2 extra from his amulet), and that's just ridiculously powerful!
1: Be Gnome.
2: Be Illusionist/Thief with 19 Intelligence, 15 Wisdom, or Illusionist/Cleric with 19 Intelligence, 17 Wisdom. Get 18 Wisdom in BG1.
Done. Non-exhaustively, the gnomes can:
Scry targets with Farsight to kill risk free.
Detect invisible and M. Img'd enemies they otherwise couldn't target with single target spells - like breach.
Use Limited Wish.
Use Wish.
Have infinite spells (to be fair, Edwin or any other caster that gets 2 level 9 spells can also have infinite spells).
The I/T can:
Use timetraps for easy 50 seconds of time stop at a time.
Or spike traps for 100d6 of damage.
Or explosion traps for 50d6 + stun. All ignoring MR as above.
Or just set snares for save at -4 or die.
Purge any illusion without a spell, without stopping what they were doing.
Get an MR of 95% or so with UAI.
Cast anything level 5 or less generally instantly during Improved Alacrity.
Blind itself.
The I/C can:
Use Chain Contingency and Spell Trigger to go around dropping three Implosion spells on a target at a time.
Spam more spells at any given time than anyone else.
Take out liches and other undead with ease.
Disable all enemy spellcasting with no save for one turn with 2x Holy Word cast in a spell trigger.
Abuse the heck out of polyself + sequencer'd cleric buffs.
Use "Harm" on targets disabled for 1 round with Implosion, setting their HP to 1 with no save and no chance of missing.
Or just be a wild mage with 18 Wisdom.
High level Nahal's + gear + chaos shields = Infinite numbers of any spell without casting time or preparation, and -2 saves for all HLA spells that allow saves.
You may not cast as many spells as Edwin, but you're sure as heck more powerful than he is on pretty much every possible metric, because losing Divination bars you from being able to handle invisibility and mirror images, while losing Necromancy bars from two spells that are marginal improvements over what you get already.
Pantalion's builds are surely great, but the specialities they have come from thief and cleric classes respectively, which empower the mage class further, and without doubt most multi-classes are more powerful than most pure classes. I'm not supporting Edwin, but even he can cast those wishes with a potion of insight.
You mean casting Wish with NRD? Yeah, that's powerful, even if slightly unreliable. Hmm, about Divination... Let's say Edwin can dispel mirror images with a couple of magic missiles, or land an AOE spell or conjure summons to handle that illusionist. Do any of the summons have any kind of "Detect or See through Invisibility" type of feature? If not, he needs a companion to help him there (Everyone needs help, right?). But wait, the EE has introduced a Gem of True Seeing! That's not much, but still a life-saver for any conjurer. And suppose he casts Sunfire just when your'e right behind him and about to backstab him. Well, I never played with him, so I cannot possibly say more. (I need to try a game with him, but I just can't tolerate him!)
"Marginal Improvements"? You must be joking! There's never a better non-HLA, party-friendly AOE spell than Abi Dalzim's (upto 200 magical damage at level 25 over a 30 ft radius)! And Finger of Death after a Saving throw reducing sequencer (Greater Malison+Spook and perchance a Doom from a cleric) is fatal to even the toughest of creatures! And oh, I forgot to say about those magically-resistant, brainless (and thus obedient and immune to intelligence drain) skeleton warriors that you get from that level 5 necromancy spell. But of course, you can get that as a cleric, but not as a plain illusionist or illusionist/thief. And Skull Traps don't cap in their damage limit like those fireballs! Another thing is Spirit Armour that gives the best AC at lower to mid levels. That's a lot forsaken for being an illusionist.
Important Disclaimer: By no means do you think that all that I've said is to support the fact that Edwin is the most powerful mage. It's not Edwin who's powerful, but it's that damned amulet of his!
By mid game, you are as strong as any pure caster but with three times the health and the ability to use shields, helmets, Elven chain and all sorts of weapons. This is actually more important than you'd think considering that there are very few powerful mage items. Being able to dual wield Dak'kon's and Defender while wearing Aslyferund is great by itself but it also frees up the Robes of Vecna, Staff of Magi, bracers of AC 3, etc. for someone like Edwin.
Oh, and berserk itself is underrated. It covers so many forms of crowd control, whereas many spells and items only cover one or two. Even late game, when you have low saving throws, berserk will prevent imprisonment, which has no saving throws and cannot be resisted. Do you see imprisonment often? No, but you do see it during some of the hardest fights.
Aerie with Limited Wish and a few Project Image spells memorised can recover multiple spells of levels 1-4 every image (or use Lum's Wisdom machine + Silver Ioun stone for 18 Wisdom herself).
A CHARNAME with 18 Wisdom can roll for wish rest every single projected image, and has a high probability of getting other good outcomes if they don't get the result.
Edwin's low wisdom means he has to rely on the finite number of Insight potions to try and use Wish. He has access to other infinite spell options (as does everyone, which is why I'm fairly blasé about the spell slots thing, so long as you don't mind spending a few minutes, a level 9 spell slot on spelltrap and carrying a stack of Power Word Kill scrolls you have infinite spells without rest).
Hmm, about Divination... Let's say Edwin can dispel mirror images with a couple of magic missiles, or land an AOE spell or conjure summons to handle that illusionist.
Mirror Images + Improved Invisibility means Edwin cannot target the enemy with magic missiles. You can try to burn through the images, but you're using one AOE per image.
Improved invisibility means Edwin cannot breach that lich who's just PfMW'd.
Conjured Summons generally can't pierce PfMW + Imp Invis.
Do any of the summons have any kind of "Detect or See through Invisibility" type of feature? If not, he needs a companion to help him there (Everyone needs help, right?).
Dark Planetar or Pit Fiend are the only thing that can see through unbroken invisibility as far as I can recall.
But wait, the EE has introduced a Gem of True Seeing! That's not much, but still a life-saver for any conjurer. And suppose he casts Sunfire just when your'e right behind him and about to backstab him. Well, I never played with him, so I cannot possibly say more. (I need to try a game with him, but I just can't tolerate him!)
I'm definitely not trying to say he can't handle these sorts of thing at all, just that they are significant hurdle for him to overcome that other characters don't need to deal with that shackle him from an optimisation perspective.
"Marginal Improvements"? You must be joking! There's never a better non-HLA, party-friendly AOE spell than Abi Dalzim's (upto 200 magical damage at level 25 over a 30 ft radius)!
I appreciate you've excepted Multiclasses, but as they're the ones that are barred from necromancy (Wild Mage can wilt just fine):
Spell Sequencer: "Holy Smite x3". Party Friendly AOE, 60d4 Magic Damage, save for half. Blinds on a failed save.
Set Snare: Party Friendly. Party Friendly AOE. Available on an Illusionist/Thief around when a pure Mage gets level 8 spells: 28D8+28 with four snares per Projected Image at level 16. That's shortly before the Spike Traps and their 20d6, again stackable. And as I mentioned, "Blindness" on the thief: Trap setting is restricted by what the character can see, rather than what can see the character. Blind thieves can't see squat.
Alternatively, just give up "party friendly", make your tank fire immune and sent them to go stand in the middle of your Incendiary Cloud, which deals 20d4 per round for ten rounds, making it pretty great for the 95% of the enemies in the game that don't have fire resistance.
And Finger of Death after a Saving throw reducing sequencer (Greater Malison+Spook and perchance a Doom from a cleric) is fatal to even the toughest of creatures!
As far as I'm aware, Spook does not lower saving throws (the -6 penalty applies only to its own save). The maximum save reduction would be -7 from Doom, Malaison, and Chant, plus an additional -2 penalty from Specialists on their appropriate school. Honestly my personal preference is Feeblemind, since almost nothing is immune to it, it's a lower level than FoD, and anything struck by it is just as dead.
However, since we're dealing with a Mage/Thief (Clerics can get FoD if they want), their Set Snare come level 20 "downgrades" from 7D8 to to "3d8+5 missile damage +20 poison damage, slays target if a Save vs. Death with a -4 bonus is failed" as an AOE that bypasses MR - So basically hardcore Wail of the Banshee.
And oh, I forgot to say about those magically-resistant, brainless (and thus obedient and immune to intelligence drain) skeleton warriors that you get from that level 5 necromancy spell.
I do love Animate Dead (especially for Clerics), but Skeletons are, sadly, not immune to intelligence drain last I checked. It makes no sense, but there y'are. Mordenkainen's Swords, on the other hand, are immune to everything except magic damage, have 25 intelligence for the int drain, -20 AC, have a greenstone amulet attached, strike as +5, and don't turn hostile when caught in an AOE - skeletons actually can do that.
Another thing is Spirit Armour that gives the best AC at lower to mid levels. That's a lot forsaken for being an illusionist.
I don't tend to care much about AC or the spells that give it at the best of times, but I will note that Ghost Armour is a 1 AC difference and a lower spell level, meaning you're not giving up Stoneskin or Fireshield in exchange for AC.
Important Disclaimer: By no means do you think that all that I've said is to support the fact that Edwin is the most powerful mage. It's not Edwin who's powerful, but it's that damned amulet of his!
It's certainly a powerful amulet. My only contention is that Edwin, amulet included, is far from the most powerful NPC, let alone most powerful mage possible, even pure, which is a wild mage with decent Wisdom.
Having said that, I rarely take Edwin as I prefer roleplay runs these days.
After playing them more I have gotten used to having all spells at my disposal as these two do.
(honorable mention and exceptions go to oozemaster druids and alchemist mages for their darn fine RP ideas they generate)
Nahal's is instant cast, ignores aura (much like Improved Alacrity, except available from level 1) and by level 20 with just the basic Chaos Shield robe and headwear has a 50% chance of casting with no wild surge at all (I don't need to say how useful it is before this, getting a cloudkill or the like well before being able to cast it).
Having had moderate success on a hardcore run with Domino the wild mage (one of my only single class characters ever), generally the key thing to wild mages for me is to go full God Wizard: Always have a backup plan, always prepare for the worst (including buffing the heck out of your saves), always try to win encounters with single spells, use Project Image to cast with, and use wands and lowly peons (aka Fighters) to handle the wetwork.
Another favourite of mine is the fighter-mage. She's the opposite of the Bard in caster level progression, but gets the better Thac0 and may specialize in weapon proficiencies and I like spellblades.
As for pure casters, mage is my favourite for her versatility. Buff, debuf, crowd control, AoE damage, it's all there. The only downside is the management of choosing spells depending on what encounters you expect after resting. That's why I dislike the later chapters of Shadows of Amn as well as Throne of Bhaal. With four to five spellcasters in the party, like I usually have, picking spells becomes a chore at high levels.
While I always use mage duals and I love wild mages, it is a sorcerer that I just can't make myself not to bring on every playthrough.
I do also bow my hat towards higher maximum potential outcome of what wild mage can do but for NRD to have 71% success chance you have to have 8mil XP and TOB side quest done. For this sole reason Wild Mage will bloom pretty much end game.
There are different stages at different parts of the game where one is better than the other.
In BGEE you can get cloud kill scroll in hidden stash which means you potentially can cast cloud kills at level 1. You can also abuse NRD to summon demon which will kill your enemies if you are protected by PFE. In BGEE you also get access to level 5 spells which sorcerers won't.
In BG2EE tables turn because sorcerers catch up on access to spells of same level. Basically sorcerers peak at around 4mil XP where wild mages at 7-8. They also once they get 3mil XP can get timestop and planetar/ia/dragons breath with 3 casts per day instead of 2 for mages. Few levels later they get 6 casts of level 9 spells where mages get 6 at I think level 28 which is in TOB. And yes I do know that wild mage can potentially cast 8NRDs and 2 level 9 spell at 3mil xp but then again, what are the odds with 45% surge change.
In TOB potential of wild mage still grows while sorcerers slows down drastically as they continue gaining levels and get circlet from neera tob quest for pretty sweeet 71% positive surge chance. At this point ability to cast 12 dragon breaths under time stop might turn the tables around, although it's pretty much guaranteed to get surge with this many NRD casts.
For me since sorcerer is super close to wild mage but I get their endgame strength still in SOA and for that reason reason I feel they are better overall.
Blinded trap-laying is a silly bug (they should fix it some day), but since you're exploiting it, I wonder if it is possible to play with a solo blinded thief. As it can be seen, on casting blindness, the thief's radius of vision becomes very small, so basically if you are alone you can't see what's there, say about 60 ft. away from you, and that can be a problem, because you might lay those traps, but you won't know where your enemy is! It's only possible if you're playing in a party where there are party members to tell you where to lay the traps (because the thief and his party members share a common field of vision.)
Also, I wonder how you blind your gnome thieves. Their save vs spells are so low. I tried blindness on Jan but he always seems to make a Save. Above level 20 a mage has Save vs. spells = 4, and a gnome with 16 constitution gets a further -4 reduction, so a effective ST of 0, means Blindness (level 2) cannot affect him. I hope you don't use Power Word: Blind, for that would require the use of a level 8 slot (same level as Horrid Wilting) and moreover I'm not sure if it works on party members.
Oh, if you say "give up party friendly", there's something better than Incendiary Cloud. How about 8 Skull Traps from Edwin? (Yes, he's the only one who can cast 8 of them. With Improved Alacrity and Robe of Vecna, the castings becomes almost instantaneous) Say he's on level 25, each Skull Trap does 25d6 damage. So that's 200d6 damage in all. And it's instantaneous! Damage over time can be inconvenient if your enemy starts moving outside the cloud. Indeed if enemies had a smarter AI they would always have got out of the cloud.
I believe that percentage is far less than 95... Fire resistance is pretty common, especially in ToB. But Magic Damage resistance cannot be achieved other than by mages with Protection from Magical Energy (and by some bosses perhaps). And in case a monster is resistant to fire, there's no good option for the illusionist then for mass damage.
I once saw a video where Edwin cast Time Stop, IA, and then dropped 3 to 4 HWs and killed the noble dragon Adalon. I really felt bad seeing it.
I guess the same applies to FoD ( "nothing is immune to it"). As for bosses who are immune to death magic, they are also immune to Feeblemind.
And why disable someone when you can directly kill them? It offers a painless and humanitarian departure for the victim from the mortal realm.
Though you're right about Spook. The description is rather confusing. But still FoD is a great thing to have.
Another great Necromancy spell that I forgot to mention is the Death Spell, which illusionists can't have. Let's consider a situation: the enemy summons 5 Earth Elementals, 5 Fire Elementals, 5 Air Elementals, 5 Nishruus, 5 Mordy's Swords, 5 Skeleton Warriors (well, I'm stopping here, but probably the enemy can summon more since he's not bound to the summoning limit as us). What would the illusionist do in that case? Even if he goes invisible, the Nishruus can still sense him. But, if you have the Death Spell, throw it in, and... POOF! They all vanish into thin air! (I love that animation of the soul vaporizing out of the body. It's so satisfying.) That's the only spell available for mass dismissal of enemy summons.
However, Wail of the Banshee is disappointing, especially as a level 9 spell. Who's that?
1. pick time trap HLAs
2. blind your bard
3. proceed laying traps in the middle of the fight with your unblind team spotting for you
I know thats cheating, but the result is as effective as any mage could hope for.
Blades can even do some pretty good damage if that blades name is haer dalis with the kundane and belm
And well, cheating is cheating.