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Remove stat buff cap limit

Was it already requested to remove the +12 stat buff limit?

Comments

  • ProontProont Member Posts: 141
    Removing the limit would be great. Especially if Beamdog ever decides to up the level cap.
  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 303
    edited January 2018
    Being given the option of changing it to something higher, lower, or outright removed would be nice.
  • MelkiorMelkior Member Posts: 181
    I already suggested elsewhere that this be made configurable through the game's INI file, so the server owner can set whatever limit they wish, within reason. I'd expect that the highest bonus possible would be 255, that being the highest unsigned integer value supported in 8 bits. Since few server owners would want a limit anywhere near that high, it should be quite adequate.

    If the value isn't set via the INI file, then I'd suggest the current limits be the default, for compatibility with current modules.
  • metagamermetagamer Member Posts: 26
    it would be nice to have two kind of "limit".

    Hard-limit, like the one already existing (i.e. +12) that cannot be passed at all

    Soft-limit, like the one only for buff from spells or from equip
  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 992
    Proont said:

    Removing the limit would be great. Especially if Beamdog ever decides to up the level cap.

    Yep, been saying that for ages!
  • hda_nwnhda_nwn Member Posts: 27
    I dont want to see it removed.

    just let us have access to it as a setting for modules or server.

    Erasing it would cause major imbalance for all servers who are balanced around their custom rules and custom items.

    As a player I love to see my stats going nonsense high. Being so dumb powerful and so on.

    As a RP PW builder and DM is not so funny to have to rework all your end game because the metagame shifted so hard.

    What i would like to see is different kind of stat enhancement. Like AC bonusses.

    - spell-like enhancement: spell and spell-like effects
    - item enhancement: worn permanent bonus
    - extraordinary enhancement: like berserker rage
    - racial/special enhancement: so we can have better use of subraces.
    - max stat limit for every kind of enhancement
    - overall stat limit.
  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 992
    Is there a limit in the Pnp?
  • metagamermetagamer Member Posts: 26
    hda_nwn said:

    I dont want to see it removed.

    just let us have access to it as a setting for modules or server.

    Erasing it would cause major imbalance for all servers who are balanced around their custom rules and custom items.

    As a player I love to see my stats going nonsense high. Being so dumb powerful and so on.

    As a RP PW builder and DM is not so funny to have to rework all your end game because the metagame shifted so hard.

    What i would like to see is different kind of stat enhancement. Like AC bonusses.

    - spell-like enhancement: spell and spell-like effects
    - item enhancement: worn permanent bonus
    - extraordinary enhancement: like berserker rage
    - racial/special enhancement: so we can have better use of subraces.
    - max stat limit for every kind of enhancement
    - overall stat limit.

    Totally agree.
    Remove cap is just no sense and totally metagame.
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 402

    Is there a limit in the Pnp?

    No but not much effects stacks.

    In PnP effects of the same type (enhancement, inspiration, luck, morale, etc.) two bonuses of the same type doesn't stack.

    If this was translated into nwn then:
    - items with bonus to same ability wouldn't stack
    - likewise, ability boost spells (cat's grace etc.) wouldn't stack with items
    - bless wouldn't stack with aid, divine favor wouldn't stack with prayer
    and more.
  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 992
    Shadooow said:

    Is there a limit in the Pnp?

    No but not much effects stacks.

    In PnP effects of the same type (enhancement, inspiration, luck, morale, etc.) two bonuses of the same type doesn't stack.

    If this was translated into nwn then:
    - items with bonus to same ability wouldn't stack
    - likewise, ability boost spells (cat's grace etc.) wouldn't stack with items
    - bless wouldn't stack with aid, divine favor wouldn't stack with prayer
    and more.
    So why can't we have the same here, with a fully customisable soft cap?
  • metagamermetagamer Member Posts: 26
    edited January 2018
    Softcap is exactly what I meant before.

    Two kinds of limits:
    - hardcap (that can be modified, and it is already like this with NWNX, default: +12)
    - softcap (that it could be the max for spells or object)

    In my PW we have hardcap and softcap.
    The hardcap is set to 12.
    The softcap is set to 6.
    The softcap is the max bonus that you can have from objects.
    So if you have helmet +4dex and boots +4dex, the total bonus is 6.
    This has been done because otherwise the players would have all the stats capped and many spells would be useless

    However, by scripting, it is complicate to have this "system of limits" because it requires many checks (especially because you can not read easily the total amount of each effect and object for 1 stat).

    It could be nice to have something similar also for skills.
  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 992
    metagamer said:

    Softcap is exactly what I meant before.

    Two kinds of limits:
    - hardcap (that can be modified, and it is already like this with NWNX, default: +12)
    - softcap (that it could be the max for spells or object)

    In my PW we have hardcap and softcap.
    The hardcap is set to 12.
    The softcap is set to 6.
    The softcap is the max bonus that you can have from objects.
    So if you have helmet +4dex and boots +4dex, the total bonus is 6.
    This has been done because otherwise the players would have all the stats capped and many spells would be useless

    By "hard cap" I mean: hardcoded.
  • metagamermetagamer Member Posts: 26
    edited January 2018
    Yes, "hardcap" is "hardcore" but the value can be set by a configuration file.

    This is how nwnx_fixes works right now, and I guess it is easier for developers to implement.
    https://github.com/NWNX/nwnx2-linux/blob/master/plugins/fixes/nwnx2.ini
  • ClisairClisair Member Posts: 15
    Definitely have it as in integer in the ini or the mod arguments and an ini setting to just shut off the limit in single player. Have the default as +12 if nothing is set. I think that would be the best way to go.
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    Keeping the hardcoded cap at +12 is quite short sighted and there is no real game reasons that it is at 12 rather than 10, 8, 15, or 256. We talk about pen and paper "things should be like pen and paper" but there we have templates like paragon creature which adds +15 to all attributes on top of whatever racial bonuses they had and before any enhancement bonuses are applied.

    If someone doesn't want more room for design then they don't have to use it. I don't see why everyone else should always be limited by fears that unwashed powergamers are coming to destroy their fun.

    With effect tagging it should be possible to use bonus stacking rules as well.

    "Is there a limit in the Pnp?"

    No such limits exist. Every creature has attributes based on an array of simulated 3d6's meaning that some creatures like Titan have a +42 bonus to strength. Similarly if a tiny creature becomes colossal their strength bonus from the change would be +40 and their constitution bonus would be +18 and their dex penalty would be -8. You can also stack bonuses from temporary effects so long as they're different bonuses and the source is different.
  • BalanorBalanor Member Posts: 176
    edited January 2018
    What do PnP rules say about stacking bonuses from items? Specifically, in NWN1 if you have a Ring of Strength+2 (for example) in both ring slots, you get a +4 bonus. Whereas in NWN2 you only get +2 as they rings do not stack.

    Which game got it right?
  • ClisairClisair Member Posts: 15
    Balanor said:

    What do PnP rules say about stacking bonuses from items? Specifically, in NWN1 if you have a Ring of Strength+2 (for example) in both ring slots, you get a +4 bonus. Whereas in NWN2 you only get +2 as they rings do not stack.

    Which game got it right?

    In every PnP game I have been in all the attributes +'s stack, sometimes to the bane of the DM
  • Drewbert_ahoyDrewbert_ahoy Member Posts: 96
    Balanor said:

    What do PnP rules say about stacking bonuses from items? Specifically, in NWN1 if you have a Ring of Strength+2 (for example) in both ring slots, you get a +4 bonus. Whereas in NWN2 you only get +2 as they rings do not stack.

    Which game got it right?

    NWN2 got it right. If a DM allows everything to stack in a pnp session then that's a house rule.
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    Neither of them got it right in representing what pnp allows in terms of stacking and magic items. If the types of bonuses are different then most do not stack but both games limit the types of bonuses you can apply. For example an ability score increase is always considered an enhancement bonus regardless of source or effect whereas in pnp this is not necessarily the case.

    There are also instances where things are permitted that should not be permitted. For example dodge AC bonuses may not be applied to magic items ever, not even to magic items. Another problem is that spells such as Mage Armor do not provide an enhancement bonus but only enhancement bonuses are present so it incorrectly stacks with worn armor when actually it should be an alternative to worn armor.

    So if you're going by the rules both did it wrong.
  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 992
    For what is worth, I would love to see caps on attributes removed - in the sense of total attribute values cap.
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