See, I'd rather see new races. Aasimar and Tieflings, for instance. Or Genasi. When the existing options have the potential to cover those things, I'd much prefer to see new faces in the party roster.
But within the contraints of IWD2, which are the building blocks for the possible subraces expansion (wish I had the quote to hand), Tiefling and Aasimar are subraces of human. Those are two "subraces" I would love to see. Genasi are a fantastic idea too, also a favourite of mine.
I think if the devs made the ability to make races + subraces available, the modders could do the rest. A nice, half way point between time spent and pleasing fans.
Subraces - not 2nd edition, just a way to get some new abilities. Only game to support them was iwd2. Not a big loss, and probably will be added to bg2ee (then patched in bgee retroactively). new kits - all kits are new kits compared to bg1, kit mods will have a good chance to work too. manuals - done weapons - done
You are likely one of those 'rage for nothing' people.
It's still Volo writing it, though, and he's writing it from the perspective of his audience being on the Sword Coast. It's the same reason why the original manual didn't describe scimitars, despite there being a bunch of them around. I agree that a note about "other weapons" wouldn't be amiss, to avoid any possible confusion.
@Aosaw I'd say the original manual didn't mention them because 1) There were only two (Drizzt's) before TotSC and 2) They fell under the large sword proficiency. The manual should really be as comprehensive as possible.
The only thing that you can't do is gain mechanical bonuses from that choice. So really, the question is this: why do you want the subraces? If it's because you want the mechanical bonuses, there's no reason you couldn't just create a mod that changes the desired race to be what you want.
I think many people would want different bonuses/penalties to give more character possibilities. I appreciate that modding has been made easier but is it really going to be that simple for a leyman to create a mod? I doubt it.
what's the point other than to overpower characters?
plus when bhaal walked the prime material plane he impregnated (correct me if i'm wrong, it's been a while since i read the trilogy and really immersed myself in the lore) his followers at temples tended by his "deathstalkers" i can't see there being many drow or duergar or deep gnomes etc etc there.
similarly why you can't have tieflings, aasimar and the like.
It would give more variety and options and invariably some of those will be powerful. But why does that matter in a predominantly single player game with no PvP?
Also, Sendai. There's no roleplay reason not to have more sub-races.
Someone mentioned the fact that katanas and ninja-tos aren't in the manual.
That's actually intentional. It's a guide to the Sword Coast, not Faerun. Katanas and other exotic weapons might be possible to find, but they're not "native" to the region, which is why they're not included in the manual.
There probably could have been a note saying that there are other weapons to be found if you look hard enough, but there was really no reason for Volo to include descriptions of every possible weapon when only certain weapons are "common".
Please, notice that we are not talking about “Sword Coast survival guide” but rather “BG EE manual mastering melee and magic”. This manual that describes BG EE and not Sword Coast, in my opinion, should be as comprehensive and accurate as possible. It’s very important for planning your character and be more immersed in game. I understand that for lots of BG vets here this might be of little importance because you already know all the ins and outs of the game. It might be essential though for new players who might be confused by AD&D rules and this vast new world. We should do our best to make it as comprehensive for them as possible.
People might be confused by lack of weapon descriptions as by lots of other things. For example manual doesn’t says anything about experience cap so it’s natural for new players to think that they will be able to progress to level 10 as it is shown in Table 2.
I agree though that first part of “Sword Coast survival guide” should be written just as you described it. Here, it’s appropriate to leave some things untold as it better captures the atmosphere of fantasy and mystery. It’s also fun to discover those elements in the game after you read some rumors about them.
How does the inclusion or non-inclusion of a weapon type in a manual help with immersion in a game?
@Ryuken87 said: "It would give more variety and options and invariably some of those will be powerful. But why does that matter in a predominantly single player game with no PvP?"
Just want to point out that balance in a game existed long before multiplayer and pvp.
Just look at games like Skyrim, though a good game, the challenge is completely gone before you've come halfway through the game. Just a hack/slash one hit and you've killed most things. That'd because the balance sucks big time in that game.
Single player games BG and most other games needs balance, else the game will become boring, no challenges, no Epic-ness.
This have nothing to do with the topic btw, on which I have no opinion, as I'm not well versed enough in sub races to offer one, just wanted to point out the balance issue, as I've read so many posts from people that somehow inexplicable equals balance in a game with pvp games.
I have some problems with tiefling and aasimar as player characters because they don´t fit the BG history!
Those two are races that have 1 parent a Angel/Demon, they also know very well about gods and their plans and most of the time and would surely find out that "mortal" is bhaal in disguise.
Also the child would be most likely another demon/angel. Not Half demon as bhaal is a god, not really a mortal.
Really... not enough to have a god as father?
Most of this ("We need all subraces movement") movement started in D&D 3.0 with any restriction going out of the window in 4.0.
Some variety is good, when you place too much races you are just playing with numbers and not really making a unique character. BG already have a hard time to see if your charname is a elf or human.
I have some problems with tiefling and aasimar as player characters because they don´t fit the BG history!
Those two are races that have 1 parent a Angel/Demon, they also know very well about gods and their plans and most of the time and would surely find out that "mortal" is bhaal in disguise.
Also the child would be most likely another demon/angel. Not Half demon as bhaal is a god, not really a mortal.
Really... not enough to have a god as father?
Most of this ("We need all subraces movement") movement started in D&D 3.0 with any restriction going out of the window in 4.0.
Some variety is good, when you place too much races you are just playing with numbers and not really making a unique character. BG already have a hard time to see if your charname is a elf or human.
Actually Tiefling/Aasimar are -1/4 fiend/angel as they are decended from half-fiend/half-angel
Clarification: Tieflings and Aasimar are not half-demons and half-celestials (those are called half-demons and half-celestials). Tieflings and Aasimar are demihumans that have some strong ancestral ties to demon- or celestial-kind. So if your father was Bhaal, and your mother's great great grandmother was a Solar, you might turn out to be an Aasimar; or if your mother's great great great great great grandfather was a Balor, you might turn out to be a tiefling.
If your mother was an actual demon, you'd be a half-fiend, with wings, and red scaly skin, and probably very hard to conceal as a ward of Gorion's. But tieflings and aasimar would fit in relatively cleanly.
The only issue you'd have is in BG2 when you meet Haer'Dalis and he explains to you what a tiefling is. You'd have to write some new dialogue for yourself to be able to say, "Uh, yeah, I know what a tiefling is. Have you seen my horns?"
The only issue you'd have is in BG2 when you meet Haer'Dalis and he explains to you what a tiefling is. You'd have to write some new dialogue for yourself to be able to say, "Uh, yeah, I know what a tiefling is. Have you seen my horns?"
Actually pre-4e not all tieflings have horns, they just had a minor feature.
Well, yes. But the dialogue options sometimes forget that not every CharName is different.
I once played a tiefling whose "feature" was that his skin was always really cold. He spent a lot of money on mittens...
NO offence to you, was just trying to be a smartass. I agree with you completely
...though as far as Aasimar and Tieflings go, Aasimar did not exist in 2e at all, and Tieflings were not a common occurence in faerun like they were in 3e (Though not as infectious as in 4e) that's what made Haer'dalis so special (And he had the story that he was a planewalker from sigil, a planescape setting, where they are very common)
So I really do not think tieflings and aasimar should be options, but that's just my opinion
@Ryuken87 said: "It would give more variety and options and invariably some of those will be powerful. But why does that matter in a predominantly single player game with no PvP?"
Just want to point out that balance in a game existed long before multiplayer and pvp.
Just look at games like Skyrim, though a good game, the challenge is completely gone before you've come halfway through the game. Just a hack/slash one hit and you've killed most things. That'd because the balance sucks big time in that game.
Single player games BG and most other games needs balance, else the game will become boring, no challenges, no Epic-ness.
This have nothing to do with the topic btw, on which I have no opinion, as I'm not well versed enough in sub races to offer one, just wanted to point out the balance issue, as I've read so many posts from people that somehow inexplicable equals balance in a game with pvp games.
@ Bytebrain That's a fair point. But having a few more powerful options need not unbalance the game when we already have Kensai/Mages, Sorcerers, etc.
From a powergaming perspective there may be no reason whatsoever to pick a certain race for a given class. For example, for a F/T a gnome has more thief points and shorty saves over a half-elf. Stats-wise the only difference is +1 int -1 wis for the gnome. (I'm not saying gnomes make the best F/Ts, it's just an example).
@Ryuken87 said: "It would give more variety and options and invariably some of those will be powerful. But why does that matter in a predominantly single player game with no PvP?"
Just want to point out that balance in a game existed long before multiplayer and pvp.
Just look at games like Skyrim, though a good game, the challenge is completely gone before you've come halfway through the game. Just a hack/slash one hit and you've killed most things. That'd because the balance sucks big time in that game.
Single player games BG and most other games needs balance, else the game will become boring, no challenges, no Epic-ness.
This have nothing to do with the topic btw, on which I have no opinion, as I'm not well versed enough in sub races to offer one, just wanted to point out the balance issue, as I've read so many posts from people that somehow inexplicable equals balance in a game with pvp games.
@ Bytebrain That's a fair point. But having a few more powerful options need not unbalance the game when we already have Kensai/Mages, Sorcerers, etc.
From a powergaming perspective there may be no reason whatsoever to pick a certain race for a given class. For example, for a F/T a gnome has more thief points and shorty saves over a half-elf. Stats-wise the only difference is +1 int -1 wis for the gnome. (I'm not saying gnomes make the best F/Ts, it's just an example).
You're probably right, but as I wrote, I know far too little about subraces to offer an opinion on whether they would influence the balance or not, I just wanted to comment on the use of the word balance itself in the context.
subraces will destroy the balance of the campaign. unless adjusted, which in some way could work i guess. remember an ad&d setting relies on the adventure to fit its characters. picture an ogre mage, with all the p&p abilities from lvl 1. no need to play the game. just steamroll one-click diablo style.
not really my idea of a bg:ee experience. so considrr what you're wishing for
...though as far as Aasimar and Tieflings go, Aasimar did not exist in 2e at all, and Tieflings were not a common occurence in faerun like they were in 3e (Though not as infectious as in 4e) that's what made Haer'dalis so special (And he had the story that he was a planewalker from sigil, a planescape setting, where they are very common)
In 4E tieflings are an actual race unto themselves that breeds true with other races (i.e. human and tiefling parents will always have tiefling children). That's why they're so prolific.
subraces will destroy the balance of the campaign. unless adjusted, which in some way could work i guess. remember an ad&d setting relies on the adventure to fit its characters. picture an ogre mage, with all the p&p abilities from lvl 1. no need to play the game. just steamroll one-click diablo style.
not really my idea of a bg:ee experience. so considrr what you're wishing for
Ogres are a race, not a sub-race. People who want sub-races want to play things like sun elves, gold dwarves, and svirfneblin, not entirely new races.
subraces will destroy the balance of the campaign. unless adjusted, which in some way could work i guess. remember an ad&d setting relies on the adventure to fit its characters. picture an ogre mage, with all the p&p abilities from lvl 1. no need to play the game. just steamroll one-click diablo style.
not really my idea of a bg:ee experience. so considrr what you're wishing for
@Schneidend Ogres are a race, not a sub-race. People who want sub-races want to play things like sun elves, gold dwarves, and svirfneblin, not entirely new races.
Yea my bad, I could still see the next alterer ask for a complete humanoid char sheet to pick from. Regardless my point stands, let me find you another example:
Sylvan Elf
Ability Score Adjustments: Because their lives are spent in constant exertion, wood elves are stronger than other elves. However, they are less sociable because of their upbringing. They have bonuses of +1 to Strength and Dexterity and penalties of -1 to Constitution and Charisma.
Disregarding the fact that this subrace in a RP sense wouldn't leave his forest for anything. But then again powergamers never took gratitude in the RP realism the rules offers.
Disregarding the fact that this subrace in a RP sense wouldn't leave his forest for anything. But then again powergamers never took gratitude in the RP realism the rules offers.
This same logic could be used to say how would a Druid grow up in Candlekeep? Gorion would have brought the sylvan elf to Candlekeep when it was a baby.
But growing up within the walls of Candlekeep really is not the same as growing up in a deep state of attunement with the forest. I guess one simply imagines that the PC regularly left to visit the wilds...
i dont wanna play CG dual wielding scimitar drows DELTAGO come on its ee and i want to see moon elf, aasimar .............. as a bhaal spawn
okey they did great work with interface and bug fixed but nothing new old great game only another company sell it.
grow up and look at seriously, game will fail but dont be upset, they are going to make bg2:ee and you will buy it..
((((new races and kits might be added later as DLC)))) DLC its a joke ........... NOT FREE PROBABLY they said if our sales will failure, we want more money...
and that manuel original one much more beauty
Dude, what did you roll for intelligence? I'm thinking a 3. Perhaps taking a little extra time to articulate, and perhaps spell your comments will make people take you more seriously and might make people think you're a little more intelligent.
But growing up within the walls of Candlekeep really is not the same as growing up in a deep state of attunement with the forest. I guess one simply imagines that the PC regularly left to visit the wilds...
The only issue with that is that you supposedly never left candlekeep before. I mean if you did leave, it would be nigh impossible to come back (The expensive entrance fee and all)
But growing up within the walls of Candlekeep really is not the same as growing up in a deep state of attunement with the forest. I guess one simply imagines that the PC regularly left to visit the wilds...
The only issue with that is that you supposedly never left candlekeep before. I mean if you did leave, it would be nigh impossible to come back (The expensive entrance fee and all)
There is a hidden grove inside Candlekeep that only you know about, but daren't enter on your rush to leave with Gorion.
@IchigoRXC Tieflings were there from the beginning of Planescape. Aasimar had to wait until the second Planescape Monstrous Compendium to get a writeup, and were okayed as a race in the Planeswalker's Handbook. And the dates on those were: Planescape (1994), Monstrous Compendium II (1995) and Planeswalker's Handbook (1996).
The only issue with that is that you supposedly never left candlekeep before. I mean if you did leave, it would be nigh impossible to come back (The expensive entrance fee and all)
The standard biography for the BG1 druid basically says you read a lot of books about trees and yearned to leave for the wilderness.
On that note, I wonder if they've got a generic 'background' for the Blackguard, like they do for the other classes? The generic Paladin background doesn't fit at all. It would be really funny trying to justify how you got away with dedicating yourself to the forces of darkness while under Gorion's tutelage.
@lolth there's a very nice game to play in PC named minefield, i'm pretty sure there's a forum somewhere to discuss it, why don't you give a check on google, so you can discuss about it there?
About the new kits and sub-races DLCs, i doubt they're going to make paid ones, otherwise people will just stick with the new mods or the new mods will just mimic the DLCs and be spread free around the internet, after all in the old game mods for a lot of kits and sub-races where done already, so in the end the question is:
Whom is violating the copyrights of whom?
I truly believe that if they gonna make paid DLCs, those DLCs are probally going to be entire huge new adventures, in the black pit style, that's probally a test of Beamdog to see if people will accept well this kind of accessory adventure.
Comments
I think if the devs made the ability to make races + subraces available, the modders could do the rest. A nice, half way point between time spent and pleasing fans.
Only game to support them was iwd2. Not a big loss, and probably will be added to bg2ee (then patched in bgee retroactively).
new kits - all kits are new kits compared to bg1, kit mods will have a good chance to work too.
manuals - done
weapons - done
You are likely one of those 'rage for nothing' people.
It would give more variety and options and invariably some of those will be powerful. But why does that matter in a predominantly single player game with no PvP?
Also, Sendai. There's no roleplay reason not to have more sub-races.
"It would give more variety and options and invariably some of those will be powerful. But why does that matter in a predominantly single player game with no PvP?"
Just want to point out that balance in a game existed long before multiplayer and pvp.
Just look at games like Skyrim, though a good game, the challenge is completely gone before you've come halfway through the game. Just a hack/slash one hit and you've killed most things. That'd because the balance sucks big time in that game.
Single player games BG and most other games needs balance, else the game will become boring, no challenges, no Epic-ness.
This have nothing to do with the topic btw, on which I have no opinion, as I'm not well versed enough in sub races to offer one, just wanted to point out the balance issue, as I've read so many posts from people that somehow inexplicable equals balance in a game with pvp games.
Those two are races that have 1 parent a Angel/Demon, they also know very well about gods and their plans and most of the time and would surely find out that "mortal" is bhaal in disguise.
Also the child would be most likely another demon/angel. Not Half demon as bhaal is a god, not really a mortal.
Really... not enough to have a god as father?
Most of this ("We need all subraces movement") movement started in D&D 3.0 with any restriction going out of the window in 4.0.
Some variety is good, when you place too much races you are just playing with numbers and not really making a unique character. BG already have a hard time to see if your charname is a elf or human.
And subraces very well did exist in AD&D 2e
Tieflings and Aasimar are not half-demons and half-celestials (those are called half-demons and half-celestials). Tieflings and Aasimar are demihumans that have some strong ancestral ties to demon- or celestial-kind. So if your father was Bhaal, and your mother's great great grandmother was a Solar, you might turn out to be an Aasimar; or if your mother's great great great great great grandfather was a Balor, you might turn out to be a tiefling.
If your mother was an actual demon, you'd be a half-fiend, with wings, and red scaly skin, and probably very hard to conceal as a ward of Gorion's. But tieflings and aasimar would fit in relatively cleanly.
The only issue you'd have is in BG2 when you meet Haer'Dalis and he explains to you what a tiefling is. You'd have to write some new dialogue for yourself to be able to say, "Uh, yeah, I know what a tiefling is. Have you seen my horns?"
(Haer'Dalis doesn't have horns either
I once played a tiefling whose "feature" was that his skin was always really cold. He spent a lot of money on mittens...
...though as far as Aasimar and Tieflings go, Aasimar did not exist in 2e at all, and Tieflings were not a common occurence in faerun like they were in 3e (Though not as infectious as in 4e) that's what made Haer'dalis so special (And he had the story that he was a planewalker from sigil, a planescape setting, where they are very common)
So I really do not think tieflings and aasimar should be options, but that's just my opinion
From a powergaming perspective there may be no reason whatsoever to pick a certain race for a given class. For example, for a F/T a gnome has more thief points and shorty saves over a half-elf. Stats-wise the only difference is +1 int -1 wis for the gnome. (I'm not saying gnomes make the best F/Ts, it's just an example).
picture an ogre mage, with all the p&p abilities from lvl 1. no need to play the game. just steamroll one-click diablo style.
not really my idea of a bg:ee experience. so considrr what you're wishing for
Fighter/cleric of talos
cleric kits actually, not a kit i think
we must choose god whatever pure or multi class build
this is a good news for the balance
Ogres are a race, not a sub-race. People who want sub-races want to play things like sun elves, gold dwarves, and svirfneblin, not entirely new races.
Yea my bad, I could still see the next alterer ask for a complete humanoid char sheet to pick from. Regardless my point stands, let me find you another example:
Sylvan Elf
Ability Score Adjustments: Because their lives are spent in constant exertion, wood elves
are stronger than other elves. However, they are less sociable because of their upbringing. They
have bonuses of +1 to Strength and Dexterity and penalties of -1 to Constitution and Charisma.
TABLE 9: SYLVAN ELF ABILITY SCORES
Ability Minimum Maximum
Strength 6 19
Dexterity 6 19
Constitution 7 17
Intelligence 8 18
Wisdom 3 18
Charisma 7 17
______________
Disregarding the fact that this subrace in a RP sense wouldn't leave his forest for anything. But then again powergamers never took gratitude in the RP realism the rules offers.
On that note, I wonder if they've got a generic 'background' for the Blackguard, like they do for the other classes? The generic Paladin background doesn't fit at all. It would be really funny trying to justify how you got away with dedicating yourself to the forces of darkness while under Gorion's tutelage.
About the new kits and sub-races DLCs, i doubt they're going to make paid ones, otherwise people will just stick with the new mods or the new mods will just mimic the DLCs and be spread free around the internet, after all in the old game mods for a lot of kits and sub-races where done already, so in the end the question is:
Whom is violating the copyrights of whom?
I truly believe that if they gonna make paid DLCs, those DLCs are probally going to be entire huge new adventures, in the black pit style, that's probally a test of Beamdog to see if people will accept well this kind of accessory adventure.