Kensai Dual-Class question.

Walstafa

Apologies, this is a complete n00b question but I've never played Baldur's Gate in any form before, although i've been playing D&D in it's various forms for the last 23-ish years.

I've been considering starting a Kensai and then dual-classing to Thief later. I understand the Kensai can't use armor in any form, but once he becomes a Thief, can he use leather armor, etc or will that impede his Kensai abilities?

ryuken87

You still can't use armour as a thief until you pick the Use Any Item HLA.

Walstafa

Thanks. :-) Wondered if that was the case, but it's good to have confirmation.

moody_mage

BERSERKER/THIEF!

Walstafa

Not really in the concept I was going for.

mungomunk

Dont really wanna open a new thread for this, so here it goes:
I havent played the BG saga in a while, but if I remember correctly in BG2 you couldn't have a dual classed Fighter/Mage who specializes in a school of magic. BG1 however allowed that. How will BGEE handle that? I assume like BG2..which would actually turn down dual-classing for me:(

moody_mage

Word on the street is that it is like the BG2 method, so no duelling into a specialised wizard. We won't know until it is released though.

sandmanCCL

@mungomunk: You can't be both a kit and a specialist at the same time, so if you wanted to do kensai/conjurer, it'd be impossible. I don't think you can do fighter/enchanter, though. Sadly.

@Walstafa: As mentioned, you couldn't use armors or bracers til you got high level abilities, which is a really long time into BG2 anyway. For BG:EE, it'd be impossible. Luckily, thieves don't really need much armor anyway as you can simply utilize hide in shadows while not in combat and wait until aggro settles on a different party member before evisceration commenceth.

However, Kensai/mages can still wear robes. Just something to think about.

Tokie

What is the best level for a human kensai to switch to mage?

Oxford_Guy

Tokie said:

What is the best level for a human kensai to switch to mage?

For most fighters its 7 (+ 1/2 APR), 9 (+1 proficiency) or 13 (another + 1/2APR)

If you do it at 13, though, that's a long time to wait to get your Kensai levels back, and you stop getting d10 HP at level 9, after that it's just +3 HP/level

It's a little different for Kensai though:

"Bonus +1 to hit and damage for every 3 levels. Bonus -2 AC. Bonus -1 to speed factor for every 4 levels. May use "Kai" ability once per day for every 4 levels (staring with 1 use at level 1). This ability lasts 10 seconds and causes all attacks made in that time to inflict max damage."

So you need to take this into account. I'm not sure if this means the Kensai gets their bonuses at levels 4/7/10/13 and 5/9/13 or at 3/6/9/12 and 4/8/12, though

TJ_Hooker

Oxford_Guy said:

Tokie said:

What is the best level for a human kensai to switch to mage?

For most fighters its 7 (+ 1/2 APR), 9 (+1 proficiency) or 13 (another + 1/2APR)

If you do it at 13, though, that's a long time to wait to get your Kensai levels back, and you stop getting d10 HP at level 9, after that it's just +3 HP/level

It's a little different for Kensai though:

"Bonus +1 to hit and damage for every 3 levels. Bonus -2 AC. Bonus -1 to speed factor for every 4 levels. May use "Kai" ability once per day for every 4 levels (staring with 1 use at level 1). This ability lasts 10 seconds and causes all attacks made in that time to inflict max damage."

So you need to take this into account. I'm not sure if this means the Kensai gets their bonuses at levels 4/7/10/13 and 5/9/13 or at 3/6/9/12 and 4/8/12, though

Pretty sure they start with one kai use at level one and get speed factor bonuses and additional kai uses at 4/8/12/etc. and to hit and damage bonuses at 3/6/9/12/etc.

It also depends if you're just planning for the first game, or if you're planning on importing into BG2. For BG1, the highest fighter level you can go to and still be able to get one level higher in a mage is fighter level 7 (by endgame you'll be figher 7/mage 8). It may take a while to regain your fighter skills and you won't be able to get 5th level mage spells though. Even just going to level 3 would provide significant bonuses such as: a net gain of 24 HP assuming 18 constitution, weapon specialization, an extra proficiency point, ability to use items usually restricted to warrior classes, better THAC0, 1 kai use, and +1 to hit and damage. And fighter level 3 only takes 4000XP, which is insignificant in the long run so it won't take long to regain your fighter abilites after you dual class and you'll still be able to reach level 9 as a mage, the same as if you were single class, which allows you to cast 5th level spells.

But if you're planning on importing to BG2, the standard is to dual at kensai 13 in order to maximize benefits

Tokie

Thanks for the info! I do want to plan this character for the longrun, so 13 it is!

Can BG:EE saves be imported into BG2? Or is there a BG2:EE in the forseeable future? :O

TJ_Hooker

Tokie said:

Thanks for the info! I do want to plan this character for the longrun, so 13 it is!

Can BG:EE saves be imported into BG2? Or is there a BG2:EE in the forseeable future? :O

From what I heard, importing a character from BGEE to BG2 will be a gamble at best. That being said, you can always use the savegame/character editor program called Shadowkeeper to recreate your character in BG2 with the same stats.

With regards to BG2EE, it is definately happening, but it'll be a while yet (a rough guess would be next summer).

Cherudek

If choosing to dual to mage at level 13 in BG2, around which point of the game will you get your kensai abilities back?

Vissious

Cherudek said:

If choosing to dual to mage at level 13 in BG2, around which point of the game will you get your kensai abilities back?

From my experience (and it was a while ago; I could be wrong) you're talking about getting your kensai back towards the end-game of the main story; mages don't exactly level quickly by default. However, if you've got cash to spare you can speed up the process by a fair magnitude by dismissing the rest of your party (tricky if you're looking to romance a member since it tends to reset or break the whole process), buying as many spells as you can afford and write them into your book. You'll be the sole receiver of the exp gained. When you hot your memory max limit, delete the spells from your book and start again. I found level 3/4 spells to be the most cost-effective for this.

Cherudek

I see. Dualing at level 9 seems to be the right choice for me then. Since I've heard the class combo was already overpowered as it is, I will try to avoid cheesing my way into the game even further. xD

edit: Also, maybe a silly question regarding dual-classing: can you put more points into high-level weapon proficiencies (like grandmastery) once you get your kensai class back? What about HLAs in ToB?

sorcerer_57

@cherudek You will be able to place further points in your weapons slots AFTER you recover the abilities from your inactive class. For example, lets say you had one proficiency point in katanas as a kensai, then dualed to thief. While you are a thief only (kensai is still inactive) you will not be able to specialize in any weapons (more than one point). Also your now thief won't have any points in katanas, and placing a point in them WILL NOT add on to the point you put in when your character was a fighter. Once you regain your inactive class, your now kensai/thief will be able to add more than one point in any weapon type avilable to the thief class.

Also, when it come's to TOB HLA's, your charactor receives HLA's for the class that you are currently leveling in. In the case of your kensai/thief, you will get thief special abilities like "spike trap" and "use any item." I hope this helps. :-D

ZanathKariashi

I've found a kensai is best left as a single class. They're only marginally better then a plain fighter for dual-classing and dual at the same levels for the same reasons, and come with some rather annoying disadvantages. On the other hand, non-dualed, they quickly get to the point where they splatter enemies by thinking angrily in their general direction, so you really don't need any flashy spells or stealth effects.

Shrimp

ZanathKariashi said:

I've found a kensai is best left as a single class. They're only marginally better then a plain fighter for dual-classing and dual at the same levels for the same reasons, and come with some rather annoying disadvantages

That's (partly) why you dual them: to bypass or ignore those restrictions. As a mage, you can still wear robes, and you have so much protection spells that AC becomes a moot point. As a rogue, you'll end up, at high level, with UAI. Win-win-win, as they say. Who says that? Nobody says that. I say it. (cookie for the reference)

CaptRory

How does Kensai interact with Polymorph or othr Shapechange abilities? Would you be a Mustard Jelly of Death?

Vissious

Sadly, no; you will merely be the mustard jelly of slow nibbling doom. HOWEVER, Tensors Transformation, a high-level mage polymorph spell designed to turn weakling wizards into titanic combat-monsters for a few sweet rounds does stack with the kensai's already impresseive melee prowess and it is, quite frankly, utterly brutal. You even glow whilst your trashing the place.

CaptRory

Well, that is promising =3

Cherudek

Ooooh, I actually thought about using Tenser's but figured it probably wouldn't stack. That is quite brutal if true. Can't wait to reach BG2 with this character.

badbromance

Oh I want to be shiny

Tokie

Can you be Grandmaster(5 stars) on one weapon and then dual-class to mage and keep your weapon skills?

Shrimp

@Tokie You'll lose all the proficiencies, but you'll get them back automatically once you get back your kensai levels I think. They may even stack if you put stars in a weapon you already had some in before dualing.

moody_mage

@Tokie - Yes but only when your mage levels are greater than your fighter levels.
@Shrimp - Fairly sure they don't stack. Wehn your original class is unlocked the greater value will be used.e

ksSilkstepper

So when you dual you lose the original abilities.. until your second class reaches the same level as the first? If you dual at lvl 3 as a thief into a mage.. you have to reach lvl 3 while a mage to get those thief skills back? Do you then turn back into a Thief while maintaining those 3 mage lvls? I are confused

Vissious

Silkstepper, you've got it right; when you dual-class, you "switch off" the class that you started off in, which in your case would be a thief, and all thief abilities and the profficiency points you spent *as* a thief will be disabled. You start afresh in your new class, which again for you would be a mage, and you ONLY get your thief abilities switched "back on" when you have surpassed your thief level by one. So, if you dual-class out of a thief and into a mage at thief lvl:3, you'll get your thief abilities back when you achieve mage lvl:4, at which point you will gain the abilities of both (but you will continue to only level up as a mage; the "thief" part of your characters life is essentially over).

Be carefull; profficiency points spent in the first class do not stack with points spent for the same weapon after you've switched into your second class, and armour restrictions for both classes will still function as normal; wearing leather armour after you've gained access to both classes again will still prohibit your spellcasting like it would normaly.

Hope that helps

ksSilkstepper

@Vissious perfect! So the proficiency points.. once the Thief levels are gained back after that theoretical 4th Mage level.. would the Mage maintain the weapon proficiencies sayyy in Long Sword (that were selected as a Thief) which would normally not be allowed?

moody_mage

If you chose longsword as a thief then once you hit level 4 as a mage you can then use a longsword again.