Would you like to have "ceiling" for basic Tilesets in NWN: EE?

HunterRayder93

As perhaps many know in NWN if you play in first person the ceiling of the interior remains invisible this "aesthetic problem" that a lot of temples afflicts overwhelmingly in NWN can be solved with mod's or Hack pack's ... but it would not be better if BG le does this feature already come into play? would thus make the game more immersive as well as more beautiful, without having to resort to modd. in this way the builders can concentrate on the construction of new Tileset and this could open the doors to an infinity of possible options to customize their campaigns and PW, imagine a beautiful tavern with ceiling chandeliers and a giant wall full of trophies! would not it be great to have it already present in the game? without having to use mod's and Hack pack's?

what do you think? what is your thought?

here are some examples taken from some mod's in the NWValut:

image taken from the project: Illithid Interior Tileset Ceilings -- TII01

images taken from the project: Drow Interior Tileset Ceilings - TID01

images taken from the project: Beholder Caves Tileset Ceilings - TIB01

DerpCity

I don't think it should be a top priority, but it would be cool for them to add down the line.

KaosWarMonk

I play in quasi first person quite a lot so would like them as a option in the base game without having to resort to mods yes.

shadguy

If we can turn them off with a setting on a given area, then I don't mind; otherwise, I'd prefer not.

We have outdoor areas built using things like the caves & mines tileset. Built-in ceilings tend to limit some of the tilesets from doing stuff like that.

-Dave

ShadowM

Like you just showed we already have them from the community and we can improve or add our own to future tile-sets. On other content too No, just the player character models. Weapons were already done by The Amethyst Dragon and he did a great job. BD need to balance Art asset and core game mechanic improvements.

Tonden

I know as players and not custom content creators it easy to look at BG and say we want the older content / standard tilesets updated. However BG in my opinion are more scripters/coders who is looking to open the hard coded part of the game up so that the content creators in the community can do all the model work.

Which is why we are in need of more people in the community to step up and create more custom projects.

I am one that is willing to do what I can, but we still need more. So if you want content like this







Then create a project to do so or join with me so we can make it happen.

KaosWarMonk

shadguy said:

If we can turn them off with a setting on a given area, then I don't mind; otherwise, I'd prefer not.

We have outdoor areas built using things like the caves & mines tileset. Built-in ceilings tend to limit some of the tilesets from doing stuff like that.

-Dave

Haven't looked for a loooong time but I think it's an option already (or maybe that's in NWN2???) Either way I use them now and they don't get it the way, they only show up when you zoom down below the ceiling level.

HunterRayder93

shadguy said:

If we can turn them off with a setting on a given area, then I don't mind; otherwise, I'd prefer not.

We have outdoor areas built using things like the caves & mines tileset. Built-in ceilings tend to limit some of the tilesets from doing stuff like that.

-Dave

This applies only to internal non-external Tileset.

fkirenicus

shadguy said:

If we can turn them off with a setting on a given area, then I don't mind; otherwise, I'd prefer not.

We have outdoor areas built using things like the caves & mines tileset. Built-in ceilings tend to limit some of the tilesets from doing stuff like that.

-Dave

I agree. What if these ceilings were turned off automatically if one chose "Exterior (or was it "Natural"?) - Above Ground" in the area settings?

LyraVren

As an optional option, yes. If builders can't turn it off, then no. I have a hellscape area built with the standard underdark tileset. It has a red sky above it, a ceiling that can't be turned off would ruin it.
It's true that ceilings add a lot to the atmosphere to an area, though.

fkirenicus

KaosWarMonk said:

Haven't looked for a loooong time but I think it's an option already (or maybe that's in NWN2???) Either way I use them now and they don't get it the way, they only show up when you zoom down below the ceiling level.

That's NWN2 I think, yes. :-)

HunterRayder93

If it is added to the Trello board at this point I hope it is at least inserted into proposals in the future ... this feature adds depth and immersion to me.

Zwerkules

Ceilings in the standard tilesets are very problematic because often module creators place the camera in an adjacent room because the walls are so low that you can look over them and that way the camera doesn't have to be so damn near to what is going on in a small room. Ceilings however don't work with those very low walls. The walls got to be higher. Now those higher walls will block the camera.
If you made the higher walls and ceilings properly, they will tilefade, but what is the point of having ceilings if you play with tilefade activated and they won't be shown anyway?
I'd really like an alternative to tilefade that makes everything between the camera and the PC transparent.

Shadooow

Zwerkules said:

If you made the higher walls and ceilings properly, they will tilefade, but what is the point of having ceilings if you play with tilefade activated and they won't be shown anyway?
I'd really like an alternative to tilefade that makes everything between the camera and the PC transparent.

I found tilefade to be misunderstood and underused. I cannot imagine playing without tilefade set to auto.
You know, there are three modes for tilefade, off, on and auto.

In automatic tilefade mode, whether something fades or not is controlled by current camera angle and distance from character.

if you zoom in and move camera behind character, nothing will tilefade, if you will play from top view then everything on tile currently standing + tiles near 1 position will fade.

It is a great mode when you want to actually be able to controll your character and see the battlefield but also get some immersion too. as only closest tiles will fade and tiles in distance will not.

raz651

I like the option of having indoor ceilings. I would also like the option of having the mini map turned off for an area, so I can create a maze a person can get lost in.

Tonden

Yes I would like to beable to turn off the mini-map as well. I came from EverQuest back in 1999 when there was no maps. So I Vote yes on this

Proleric

I understand that EE aims for compatibility, so that rules out adding ceilings to existing tilesets. It would break many existing modules, by decapitating dragons / giants, and messing up camera work like Zwerkules said.

Rework the OC with new tilesets, by all means, and release them for new modules (only).

Tonden

I don't know if you understand or not that doorways are over 10 feet tall in game

and I have ceilings that are far taller then that. Plus you can have fade on or auto.




So I don't feel having ceilings would be as BIG of a problem as some may feel. Plus not all modules have cutscenes.


Oh and to be 100% honest I always play with NEVER, but I have turned it on to test the fade on the tileset I'm working on and I have to say I can't stand fade. For me it kills the immersion, I hope that I never have to play with it on.

Don't get me wrong I know some people don't want to be forced to use them, but on the other hand I feel its been unfair to people like me being forced to not have ceilings all these years as a player. I just extremely grateful that I know can change it, so I can now enjoy the game.

Grymlorde

Only if the builder has the option to turn them on (off by default). This will ensure maximum backwards compatibility.

HunterRayder93

Grymlorde said:

Only if the builder has the option to turn them on (off by default). This will ensure maximum backwards compatibility.

This is an option that applies to all modders and Sp pepols, why in your opinion only modders should have only this option ?! why do you want to penalize the single palyer? I understand that your opinion but from how you say it, it seems almost as if you want to "push away" new players focusing only on tea and other modders of modules, this is not right from my point of view because if only a part of community the other part of community will move away from the game.

So you must find a point of "balance" for me that many so-called "old players" do not understand or do not want to understand as if most do not want to come out of the shell de is stopped in 2002.

what I just said and purely a personal thought towards the community of modders of NWN (only a part then seems to understand that others are likely to change), then answers like yours I find them rather absurd because you answer no perè the sentence seems a "No but yes with certain conditions" so your answer in theory should be a yes but you answered as a no, and you're not the only one in many posts I saw I read comments similar to yours that had the same emphasis that I find here now, personally I say ... that it costs you to say "yes" and then say "but I would like this and that other if possible" this is not a reproach and a suggestion, for fre so that BG understands better and do not get confused because your affirmation might seem like a "no" but maybe you meant as a "yes" but then from now on please answer the question carefully and do not formulate phrases that may confuse the thoughts of users, moderators and BD? we want to make NWN: EE a fantastic game? we are trying to understand each other from these little things.

Tonden

I know I understand when creators get upset if something is forced on them that could mess up their work/modules.

But why can't module creators understand if a player wants something different? I'm a player and I want the choice to use ceilings or not I want the choice of using fading or not. I do not want someone forcing it on me if I want that I would go play something other then NWN. Because what I like and want isn't the same as the next guy.

NeverwinterWights

I made 9 areas (3x3) that use the underdark tileset but are used as outdoor dead forest areas full of old dead trees, spiders, owl hoots, etc. I also used the underdark tileset for purgatory. If players were able to turn on ceilings it would completely ruin the areas. And thats just a couple examples of indoor areas being used as outdoors.
I do like the idea of having the option for the builders though. Just like the areas skybox.

Rifkin

NeverwinterWights said:

I made 9 areas (3x3) that use the underdark tileset but are used as outdoor dead forest areas full of old dead trees, spiders, owl hoots, etc. I also used the underdark tileset for purgatory. If players were able to turn on ceilings it would completely ruin the areas. And thats just a couple examples of indoor areas being used as outdoors.
I do like the idea of having the option for the builders though. Just like the areas skybox.

I think this makes the most sense. Considering that a skybox is useless with a ceiling, why not tie the two features together? Just add "Ceiling" as a skybox option, but instead this toggles the ceiling for the given tileset.

Tonden

I understand what your saying I really do. But not every module is that way

However there is a way to prevent from overrides being used on an area. If you the module builder was to create a hak of that tileset (with not changes to it) your using and make it so its needed in order to play your module then overrides would not be able to be used for that tileset.

Now I would know how to get around that with just a few minutes of work, but most players wouldn't. Plus I would also know that I would be changing something in the module so I would also know that I may be screwing something up.

But the point is that their is ways for module creators to protect a tileset that they don't want overrides used on for most players. However that is a unneeded hak that players would need to have to play your module but then they couldn't use overrides for that tileset. So its really all about how bad you don't want players using overrides.

So if it was me and I had an area like what your talking about and I care if players used overrides and screwed up the module then I would do what I just said and add in that unneeded hak.

TheBarbarian

Plugging Proleric's suggestion for a technical workaround to the modulebuilders-versus-overrides problem.

Ontopic - speaking as a singleplayer-preferring (occasional) player, I'm fine with the ceilings situation as it is, since tile overrides for ceilings already exist and aren't really a big deal to just download and install. I have zero inhibitions about opening up a module and adding stuff to it before playing, too. IMO that's always been one of the best things about NWN anyway.

Not that I'd hate and utterly oppose the idea, but it doesn't seem like a very good use of BD time compared to other stuff they could be doing.

I'd like any future tilesets to be built with ceilings, for sure.

Tonden

I really don't know why people wast time going on about BD adding to or changing old tilesets because for one they already said that they aren't going to. Second they are scripters/coders not model creators. Everyone they keep looking in hiring are scripters/coders as well.

They are not going to change anything to the old tilesets. So everything will be as it always has been. Which is why I'm creating overrides for the old standard tilesets for people who want to use them.

LyraVren

Tonden said:

I know I understand when creators get upset if something is forced on them that could mess up their work/modules.

But why can't module creators understand if a player wants something different? I'm a player and I want the choice to use ceilings or not I want the choice of using fading or not. I do not want someone forcing it on me if I want that I would go play something other then NWN. Because what I like and want isn't the same as the next guy.

Generally builders limit things for the benefit of the players, so that players do not run into unexpected issues that ruin their enjoyment of the module/PW.

Proleric

The notion that players should have unlimited freedom to install incompatible mods is a little naive.

From long experience of handling player queries, I'd say that would be true if we lived in a perfect world where all players understand modding inside out, and accept responsibility for their actions. Understandably, we're not even remotely close to that situation. It's the module authors and PW owners who have to sort out the mess, accept poor ratings and sometimes abuse, when players think things don't work.

I have some sympathy with modders who want to make global changes to the game, but, as it stands, you can't do that without breaking other people's work. Some might think that it's OK because it only breaks a percentage of modules, but remember that, from the author's point of view, their module is 100% of their investment in the game, so if it's broken it's a very big deal to them.

The proposal that modules should incorporate all the standard Bioware stuff in haks to protect them against overrides falls down on many counts. Firstly, most of the authors of much-loved modules are no longer around to do this. Secondly, the download would be vast, as it would not only have to include the tilesets, but every other game object as well. Lastly, putting scripts into a hak prevents them from being edited in the toolset without fuss.

What I'd propose is that

• Beamdog should hold fast to their compatibility goal
  
• Global modders to try, where practical, to be compatible (for example, by not changing walkmesh, ceilings or scripts) - where this is not possible, to warn players to uninstall the mod when playing custom modules
  
• Beamdog to introduce a flag which module authors can set to ignore overrides (detailed proposal already submitted for this) to prevent conflict on a forward basis
  

HunterRayder93

@proleric in one way or another is already going to imply compatibility in many respects ... already the fact that most of the existing mods in NWValut is not compatible with NWN: EE makes you already understand that ... by force of things every single mod (those not compatible) must be updated, so from that point of view for me BD has partly failed on the compatibility side, so do not come to tell stories and fantasies about "BD must maintain compatibility" because this does not it's true, compatibility or not BD will have to break something to make the game better.

So ok compatibility but in part.

MrDamage

HunterRayder93 said:

the fact that most of the existing mods in NWValut is not compatible with NWN: EE makes you already understand that ... by force of things every single mod (those not compatible) must be updated

Is this actually true? What percentage say are we talking?

Shadooow

Proleric said:

• Beamdog should hold fast to their compatibility goal
  
• Global modders to try, where practical, to be compatible (for example, by not changing walkmesh, ceilings or scripts) - where this is not possible, to warn players to uninstall the mod when playing custom modules
  
• Beamdog to introduce a flag which module authors can set to ignore overrides (detailed proposal already submitted for this) to prevent conflict on a forward basis
  

Imo BeamDog needs to ignore bittervets like you.

There is no way ceilings can cause compatibility issue. And those who see potential issue of cutting bigger entities such as dragon in half are crazy. It would be undesirable graphical glitch but not something to break the module. Even if we had some placeable at 200 Z position that player needs to shoot and ceilings would hide it, it would still be easily found using object highlighting (TAB) feature.

Rejecting or blocking new feature just so that one theoretical module from hundred didn't have such issue is childish. The way you talk about your hard work on your own modules and how much time you spend each day because someone is reporting a bug caused by overrides is also childish. I definitely spent more time dealing with false reports on my project (community patch) which was said to break modules and from 50 reports only 3 were positive and 2 of them in version called beta. Do I cry about that? No.

You always cry how overrides, but I know you are talking about CPP because you spread hate campaign against it everywhere, are breking your module and causing bug and issues. Yet I never seen an actual proof or actual issue that said overrides caused to your precios modules. All I see in your posts is "I and I and I" you don't care about anything else than your modules, your work and your projects.

Backwards compatibility is important. However, if we consider "breaking backwards compatibility" by anything such as "ceilings cutting my dragon in half", then we cannot add anything. Every new feature might cause similar little issues.

Imo, if ceilings are added, they need to be high enough to fully display biggest vanilla dragon. If someone used the 1.69 pseudo-scaling feature and made bigged dragon, we will have to live with that. If that is insuperable obstacle for builders like Proleric, then add 1.69 tiles without ceilings into your module. For older modules where their author is no longer there - well first of all, such modules were made before 1.69 and thus they won't have anything bigger than ancient dragon in them. Second, even if they had then we, the nwn community, can change that module and add 1.69 tiles into it to avoid that issue. If we considered it as a problem which I won't agree with anyway.