Immune to Death Magic, etc

tgx

Hey, so I generally like to play rogues/assassins.

But, last time I played through NWN, I think I came across lots of bosses that had immunity to most of my big-hitting skills. I'm not sure if it's the same for other classes or not. Maybe those bosses are immune to a whole lot of stuff, that just make them a lot harder to deal with for most classes.

Is that the case at all? Or are rogues/assassins unfairly being held back? As I said, I only really play rogues. I have no interest in other classes, so don't play them at all.

But, as I also said, last playthrough, I did encounter these enemies that had sneak attack/death magic immunity. So, is Beamdog looking into this kind of thing? I haven't brought the game yet, but I'd like to find out some stuff before I do. Just to see if it's likely to be more in line with how I like to play.

So, has there been discussion on this? Balancing?

MadHatter

They’re called Undead. This is a 3e D&D thing.

Balkoth

Like MadHatter said, it's a 3.0 thing so don't expect Beamdog to change anything.

That said, PWs and custom campaigns are free to do whatever they want, including removing sneak attack immunity on many creatures...but that's a deliberate attempt to rebalance the ruleset, not a bug fix or something.

DerpCity

I find it funny that you can't crit Constructs but you can crit a chest.

DrHappyAngry

You might try switching items out to specifically deal with the threat. Fighting lots of skeletons, or the like, switch out to a morning star or something, don't keep trying to kill them rapier or other piercing weapon. Take advantage of the Use Magical Device skill and use whatever scrolls and items that might be useful in dealing with the particular enemy. Place some traps and lure the enemies over it. You can use hit and run stealth tactics to lure some enemies away from the main group, too. A lot of what I've said depends on the specific campaign, and what's available, though. I know a lot of that won't work against something like a dragon, that's totally immune to sneak attack, but you could equip items that have elemental immunity to it's breath attack, immunity to fear, or use scrolls like stoneskin. This does mean you have to be on the lookout for scrolls and items to deal with specific threats, but a rogue can be super flexible with the right gear and they can use a lot of stuff restricted to other classes.

Rifkin

Unfortunately, immunity to critical hits (at least in 1.69) is a superset of immunity to sneak attack, by that I mean, if the creature is immune to criticals, he's automatically immune to sneak attacks as well.

It makes it difficult to balance for rogues with this, because allowing other melee classes to critical hit enemies often really skews the difficulty curve.

It would be nice if we could somehow separate immunity to sneak attacks and critical hits.

sarevok57

from what i recall, if someone is immune to critical hits, its like they have heavy fortification, and heavy fortification blocks sneak attack as well

the idea behind critical hits/sneak attack is that you are specifically hitting weak spots ( like organs and such ) so that's why they go hand and hand

KingSean17

sarevok57 said:

from what i recall, if someone is immune to critical hits, its like they have heavy fortification, and heavy fortification blocks sneak attack as well

the idea behind critical hits/sneak attack is that you are specifically hitting weak spots ( like organs and such ) so that's why they go hand and hand

One thing I never got about 3e is why you can't crit constructs and undead. Would a golem not have weakspots like gaps in its armor, joints, ect? A vampire can be stabbed in the heart and a zombie can have it's head removed. Hitting a chest on it's hinge would probably be more effective than just hitting it randomly.

sarevok57

yeah, i never understood that mechanic either, in my opinion, if you can do damage to it, you should be able to critical hit it as well

i think the way on how 3rd edition sees it is that you have to hit a vital organ for it to be a critical hit, and since constructs and undead ( except vampires ) have no vital organs you can't critical hit them, which i think is a pretty weak case

DerpCity

KingSean17 said:

One thing I never got about 3e is why you can't crit constructs and undead. Would a golem not have weakspots like gaps in its armor, joints, ect? A vampire can be stabbed in the heart and a zombie can have it's head removed. Hitting a chest on it's hinge would probably be more effective than just hitting it randomly.

I'm no expert on 3e/3.5e and I haven't even played PnP, but I think I can address your questions?

So, according to the dandwiki, most Golems are made entirely out of a specific type of material. For example, Iron Golems are sculpted out of 5,000 tons of pure iron, mithral golems are made of 8 1/2 tons of iron transmuted into mithral, adamantine golems are made out of 45,000 pounds of pure iron and then turned into Adamantine through specifically the Wish spell, Stone Golems are made out of pure stone. The reason they cannot be crit is because they are made 100% out of one specific type of element, and there are no weak points. Despite the fact that they're drawn as giant robots, the Iron Golem's creation process implies they would look more like a giant statue of a warrior than a machine: In fact, that is how they're described, looking like Stone Golems in every way except material, which are chiseled like large statues typically displaying armor. Because their entire body is made of the same type of metal and, for the sake of simplicity, equally strong, you cannot crit them. Even the Flesh Golem, which is made entirely out of stitched together flesh, follows this rule.

Now, lets look at the Warforged. Warforged are one of the few types of construct that the "no criticals" and "no constitution" rules are lifted (not sure why on the latter, I haven't read up on them enough). The reason for the former is that the joints connecting their body parts are made of wood, and since wood is obviously weaker than metal its a weak point - a weak point you can exploit to sneak attack or crit them. This helps support the earlier assessment that all parts of a Golem's body are equally strong with no weak points, and I think it provides a level of authenticity to giving them the "no crit" rule.

As for undead, considering the fact that the Vorpal item property is literally having a chance to behead someone on critical, it can be inferred that Critical Hits and Beheading are not hand in hand. A D&D vampire, by virtue of being undead, would not actually be drastically harmed by being stabbed in the heart: if it relied on its bodily functions at all, it would have a constitution score and probably do more than drink blood. Also, Vampires have innate fast healing in 3.5, meaning they'd just quickly heal the damage done to an internal organ if it didn't kill them. Unfortunately, this doesn't stop most undead from having weak points in their joints, limbs, etc due to being created from a human, so I agree that it doesn't make much sense for most undead to be immune to critical hits.

Mordaedil

It's like that because there are enchantments to bypass it in Pen and Paper.

FreshLemonBun

Precision damage requires discernible anatomy, when there is no such anatomy and there is no sense of a creature having vital functions then you can't get extra damage for slicing an artery or whatever because it doesn't have that sort of thing.

Oozes like the gelatinous cube also don't have such anatomy and I'm not sure it's possible to explain how you can do more precise damage with better aim. I think the concern largely stems from a gamer perspective where you assume various game conventions apply to all games, rather than considering that some are built around goals of simulation such as D&D.

It works sort of like how it does in the movie The Terminator or Terminator 2, you need to destroy it to make it stop.

Rifkin

Golems make sense for not having critical hits, as they do not experience pain. They may have 'weaknesses' though, such as an Stone Golems weakness to acidic damage. This showcases how you can exploit their weakness, and it does not require some Herculean feat.

Now, on the topic of undead and criticals, I am a bit torn. If criticals are the register of extreme pain, (as characters are not always being cleaved in twain, that happens at death), then zombies and skeletons and most other undead do not feel pain from basic weapons. They have weaknesses to divine magic, and specifically holy symbols and blessed weapons/water.

The thing about this is that you need to also consider what sneak attack is. Is Sneak Attack getting the jump on someone, and by doing so incurring more damage? Or is it the shock of being unexpected stabbed?

Unexpectedly putting a dagger in the back of a zombies head is not a critical, nor a bonus to damage. (Maybe some settings treat zombies differently, but in most DND, zombies are not killed by simplying damaging the brain... They are magical cursed creatures, driven by evil intent).

Then again, when building modules, I have found that Rogues and others that depend on their sneak attacks are often woefully unprepared for any creature that has such immunities. The real reason for separating sneak attack immunity from critical immunity would be to allow for better PVE balance. Of course, this is not how DND treats it, but the option surely could be provided.