Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been announced! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to pre-order, apply for the Head Start and check for details. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Modifying the various berserking abilities

GreenerGreener Member Posts: 308
To avoid duplicating work already in progress, is anyone else already working on this? Possibly @subtledoctor ?

Comments

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,487
    My mod does so:
    https://github.com/UnearthedArcana/Might_and_Guile/blob/master/might_and_guile/components/250_revised_rage.tpa

    Basically adds +.5 APR, and removes some of the cheesier/nonsensical immunities.

    But I'm not terribly happy with that. I'm thinking about just having all Berserk/Rage effects mimic Minsc's. It's good in that it stops when there are no enemies around, so you don't risk attacking your friends. The trade-off would basically be:
    +: extra durability (hit points)
    +: attack/damage bonuses
    +: immunity to tons of stuff
    -: yellow circle, so no intelligent targeting or potion use

    This would also be cool, IMHO, as a toned-down version of the cursed berserking weapons. With a less terrible version of being uncontrollable, you might make the decision to actually use those weapons more.

    For example:

    You can have your Berserker bum-rush a caster, and then Rage when you're right next to them. Got to town on the caster on autopilot, and then mop up the leftovers after. When the fight's done, you're back to normal.

    At the same time I want a lot more ways to remove Rage from a Raging ally if you notice that they need to calm down/retreat/heal etc. Remove Curse should do it, and that "Acclamation" ability or whatever it's called, but also maybe Charm Person, Domination, Chaotic Commands, etc.

    Luke93
  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 308
    I prefer your plan to have all berserk/rage effects mimic Minsc's

    With regards to cursed berserking weapons, I've made a couple that instead of the wielder always berserking, there is a percentage chance (10-25%) of berserking, adding a little bit of flavour and unpredictability...

    Raduziel
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,487
    Greener said:

    I prefer your plan to have all berserk/rage effects mimic Minsc's

    With regards to cursed berserking weapons, I've made a couple that instead of the wielder always berserking, there is a percentage chance (10-25%) of berserking, adding a little bit of flavour and unpredictability...

    Is it a % chance when equipped?

    Maybe a % chance on hit makes sense - as you cause injury and draw blood, the rage threatens to take you over, etc. Could be fun.

    I've literally never used Minsc's Rage... but I've just started a BGEE game, so maybe I'll try it out and see if it's fun or annoying.

    Raduziel
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 880
    edited February 13
    Minsc rage is not that fun, in my opinion. I used him in my most recent SoD playthrough and he did attacked his teammates quite a few number of times when he raged. Even when lots of enemies were around. And he also died a few times because I couldn't control him and have him drink healing potions. The skill is ok against trash mob, but against greater foe, it's just too dangerous. And a skill good only against trash mob is not a really good skill. I always play SoD no-reload on insane with bonus damage turned off, though. Maybe that taints my view a bit.

    I prefer your actual mod @subtledoctor. You could maybe prevent the rager to use item slots, but, when things would be hairy, you'd have to flee, wait for the rage to expire and only then drink a potion. Not a very zerker type of behavior. No really, with the restriction to fighting style and the penalty to AC, that's pretty great as-is in my opinion. I got Shar-Teel as a zerker with your mod in my actual playthrough and she's all the fun in the world. As a no-reloader, I wouldn't touch a zerker charname with the Minsc-type of rage with a 10 foot pole.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,487
    Arctodus said:

    Even when lots of enemies were around.

    I think the way it works is, he'll attack anyone if there are red circles around - so stay out of his way - but he won't keep attacking when the red circles are gone.
    Arctodus said:

    As a no-reloader, I wouldn't touch a zerker charname with the Minsc-type of rage with a 10 foot pole.

    But that kind of gets to what bothers me about thd class as implemented: it's supposed to be incompatible with no-reload, in a fundamental sense. The whole thing sbout no-reload is, you are super cautious about dying, carefully reducing risk as much as possible. Whereas a Berserker should be unafraid of dying. A Berserker wants to die in battle.

  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 880
    I agree it makes conceptual sense, but it's a mechanic that is lacking gameplay wise. Having no control whatsoever on a character for an extended period of time is pretty equivalent to praying the rng gods to be on your side : click and hope. There's little tactical value to it. You can't have a cleric assist the berserker either if there's a need for healing, because the zerker has a good chance of wacking the cleric anyway.

    I'm not too sure my impression is tainted by the fact that I'm a no-reloader, because Minsc is not charname. He could die as much as he wanted and I could revive him. And he did quite a few times when I used that skill. After a while, I just decided to forgo the skill because using it became an hiderance more than anything else.

    Maybe if the zerker would have a chance of being uncontrollable and if there was more way to get the zerker out of his rage state, then I could see this mechanic working. But the Minsc rage is neither all that good nor fun.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,487
    Arctodus said:

    Maybe if the zerker would have a chance of being uncontrollable and if there was more way to get the zerker out of his rage state, then I could see this mechanic working.

    That's an excellent idea. Something like, 50% chance of going yellow, only on a successful hit, and give it a very short duration - 6 or 12 seconds. So you never get stuck yellow for an extended period.

    ArctodusRaduziel
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,428
    edited February 13
    The interpretation for the berserker in Baldur's Gate has always bothered me in that it's not accurate at all regarding the original berserkers.

    These were supposed to be some sort of super aggressive warriors carrying only a shield (traditionnally a nordic round shield) and their weapon, and folklore says they wore bear skin. Definitely no armor though.

    And concerning their rage, it was more about ignoring pain and going all-out etc... than actually trying to kill everyone around. So BG got it pretty accurate with the immunities, but not so much about wearing armor. A BG berserker is a tank, while an actual berserker is really an all-out attacker.

    If I were to rework the berserker, I would make it an armorless fighter with a d12, and the ability to toggle the berserker rage so that it would grant a massive boost to tankiness, immunities to pretty much everything, a boost to damage, with some periodic damage dealt to the berserker.

    The features would be something along those lines:
    Hit die: d12
    Cannot wear an armor (Can wear a shield and bracers)
    Can only dual-class to cleric (Roleplay-wise they would be far too unstable to be mages or thieves, but on the other hand in the nordic mythology their rage is said to be of divine origin)
    Can toggle Berserker Rage:

    Berserker Rage:
    +30% resistance to melee physical damage
    +60% resistance to ranged physical damage
    +30% physical damage
    The immunities of the berserker rage (perhaps nerfed a bit)
    Increasing damage over time (e.g. 1 damage per round for the first two rounds, then 2 damage per round for the next two, and so on)
    When toggled off, the ability cannot be used for one turn, during which the berserker is winded.
    Berserker Rage is cast automatically when the Berserker is helpless.

    Cannot pick hardiness. Instead, can pick Improved Berserker Rage (once):
    Increases the melee physical resistance by 10% and decreases the periodic damage by 1. The berserker is no longer winded after using Berserker rage (the one turn cooldown remains).

    Figures might not be right but that's the idea.


    And back to the subject at hand, I would leave the Barbarian rage as it is and make that of Minsc closer to what I just described.

  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,037
    I never understood why the Barbarian and Berserker exist side by side. I guess they implemented the Berserker kit first, and then were like "Oh, let's add 3rd edition classes!"?

  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 308
    edited February 17
    Would this work? Thoughts?

    In addition, what is the purpose of "insert_point" is it required in this mod?

    BEGIN ~Berserk/Rage Rebalancing~ COPY_EXISTING ~spcl152.spl~ ~override~ //Rage LPF ADD_SPELL_EFFECT INT_VAR opcode = 3 // Effect: #6 (Berserk) target = 1 // Target: 1 (Self) timing = 9 // Timing mode: 9 (permanent after death) insert_point = "-1" // Add them as the last effects STR_VAR resource END COPY_EXISTING ~spcl321.spl~ ~override~ // Berserk LPF ADD_SPELL_EFFECT INT_VAR opcode = 3 // Effect: #6 (Berserk) target = 1 // Target: 1 (Self) timing = 9 // Timing mode: 9 (permanent after death) insert_point = "-1" // Add them as the last effects STR_VAR resource END

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,428
    insert_point serves in some situations, because effects are applied in the order they are written.
    The most obvious example would be, if you want to make an ability with unlimited uses, the method is removing the spell then adding it again.
    If you use the Remove Spell OPcode first (entirely removes the spell from the book no matter the number of use) and then use the Give Innate Ability opcode (which writes it back, and in case of innates, gives you a use of it), it will work properly.
    If you do it the other way around though, your spell will be first added then entirely removed.

    Most of the time insert_point won't matter but there are edge cases such as this one where it serves.

    In your case it's useless though, especially considering you add it last (which is already the default value)
    You shouldn't need any resource either (opcode 3 doesn't require one) so your STR_VAR is useless.

    BTW timing mode 9 is Permanent, so you want to make the berserk effect permanent?

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 1,858
    And on top of the timing, for what I read on this thread, you should also alter the Probability of the effect.

  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 308
    edited February 18
    Thank you your feedback

    BACKUP ~Berserk/Backup~ AUTHOR ~Greener~ VERSION ~1.1~ BEGIN ~Berserker Rage/Barbarian Rage Rebalancing~ COPY_EXISTING ~spcl152.spl~ ~override~ // Barbarian Rage LPF ADD_SPELL_EFFECT INT_VAR opcode = 3 // Effect: #23 (Berserk) target = 1 // Target: 1 (Self) timing = 0 // Timing mode: 0 (Instant/Limited) duration = 30 // Duration: 30 END COPY_EXISTING ~spcl321.spl~ ~override~ // Berserker Rage LPF ADD_SPELL_EFFECT INT_VAR opcode = 3 // Effect: #3 (Berserk) target = 1 // Target: 1 (Self) timing = 0 // Timing mode: 0 (Instant/Limited) duration = 60 // Duration: 60 END

    Post edited by Greener on
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,428
    Raduziel said:

    And on top of the timing, for what I read on this thread, you should also alter the Probability of the effect.

    On the ADD_SPELL_EFFECT function probability 1 is 100 and probability 2 is 0 by default

    Greener
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 1,858
    Arunsun said:

    Raduziel said:

    And on top of the timing, for what I read on this thread, you should also alter the Probability of the effect.

    On the ADD_SPELL_EFFECT function probability 1 is 100 and probability 2 is 0 by default
    Yup, but from what I could understand the idea is having the chance of becoming uncontrollable, not that this effect occurs at every time the special ability is used.

Sign In or Register to comment.