Berserker/Thief dual class

Yosharian

Hello there chaps, I'm considering a special playthrough for the release of BG:EE, a no-magic playthrough where I only use characters that are non-primary spellcasters (e.g. Paladins allowed cos their spells are ****e anyway) or not spellcasters at all (so no mages or clerics!).

To this end I started considering my main character and decided on a Berserker/Thief dual, however I'm not experienced with this class type so I have some questions for you guys. Note that since I'm playing BG:EE this will be virtually vanilla, only with the modifications/improvements that come with BG:EE obviously. (I will NOT be using illegal stuff like Fake Talk, although I'm going to abuse the **** out of traps =D)

Selection of classes:

http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Classes_and_Kits#Fighter

I chose Berserker because of the immunities, basically. I've been wondering how the **** I'm going to manage against vampires, umber hulks, etc etc without them. Enrage gives immunity to: charm, hold, fear, maze, imprisonment, stun, confusion, feeblemind, level drain and sleep. (according to IPIHC) This stuff is gonna be crucial. Loss of ranged specialization: pfft who gives a ****!

My only other thought was wizardslayer, but I tossed that one in the bin because I can't be arsed to wait for Use Any Item to overcome the no-magic items rule... No way I can cope without them in this playthrough. I am NOT interested in Kensai as I don't believe it fits the Fighter/Thief playstyle that I'm intending (straight up fighting with some scouting/ability use as necessary).

Any comments or suggestions?

Level distribution:

Fighter level progression:
http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Fighters_and_Barbarians

I'm thinking level 9 berserker to gain access to the final hit die, one more proficiency point, bit more thac0 etc, and also one more use of 'enrage' (i believe that will be 3 uses? 1, 5, 9, right?) After that obviously dual to Thief and max that.

Justification: I believe HP will be crucial for this playthrough (I'm already having nightmares about Kangaxx) and so I'd like to get that extra hp. I don't want to wait til level 13 as I already did a kensai/mage and I think I dualled around 7/9 and found even that to be very tedious to play while waiting for my old abilities to come back. I also don;t think it's crucial to do just for that extra 0.5 of an attack. I also think having extra uses of enrage is going to be very useful.

Weapon proficiencies:

http://mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/weapons/axes.html

Here's where I'm a bit stumped, I really have no idea what to go for. My character is going to be neutral, so I'm not going to be wielding Blackrazor or anything. Equalizer is a nice choice but hardly an endgame weapon. I will have lots of melee fighter allies so it's not like the Crom Faeyr will go to waste if I don't wield it, etc.

Also, I heard that 2-handed weapons are optimal for backstabbing rogues? 0-o Can anyone explain this to me? Also, I'm not entirely sure I'm going to be backstabbing all the time, so I don't know if I want to build my entire character around that. Having said that, UAI will allow me to use Carsomyr =D But then again, I was considering using Keldorn on my BG2 run, so I might want to give it to him...

Perhaps the Flail of Ages would be best, as Free Action will protect against slows and other annoying effects like Web, since I won't be having access to that spell with no cleric. (as long as BG2:EE doesn't have a cute cleric NPC as one of the new characters, =S).

Perhaps Belm for offhand?

What about not having access to haste/improved haste? Are there any weapons which become more useful because of this?

So yeah, lot of stuff to consider there. I'm thinking Longsword + Scimitar... But I need to know what you guys think of 2-handed. Ugh.

HLAs:

http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Epic_Level_Abilities

So I figure the best HLAs are the Thief ones, that's mainly why I'm dualling from Fighter, although also I'm going to use the Thief skills a lot I think.

The main ones are Use Any Item and the special traps, and of course Assassination is pretty awesome. Avoid Death is sort of useful. Not sure about Evasion/Improved Evasion though.

That's all I can think of for now.

Oxford_Guy

The only two-handed weapon that you can backstab with is the quarter staff, though there are some good ones.

Yosharian

Oxford_Guy said:

The only two-handed weapon that you can backstab with is the quarter staff, though there are some good ones.

Well that doesn't seem worth it. I definitely won't bother with that then.

CaptRory

You may need to bring in a few other player-made guys for this kind of challenge.

Classes to look at: Any of the Paladin Kits, Berserker or Barbarian, Wizard Slayer? He'd fit the theme for sure, Bounty Hunter or the uber traps.

Isair

I assume you're using magic items (ie items that allow you to cast certain spells)? The Ring of Gaxx lets you cast improved haste x3 a day & the Amulet of Cheetah Speed lets you cast it once (it's awhile away though) & there's always the boots of speed.

I'd recommend that you dual at 13, since that's when your attacks per round cap out. Belm in your off-hand is a good move, I'm not sure about using the Flail of Ages... I usually abuse backstab alot as a fighter/thief. You can also just aquire a Ring of Free Action so... I'd stick with thief friendly weapons because backstab is half the appeal.

Berserker immunities are fantastic, it's a good choice.

moody_mage

You of course realise that BG2:EE doesn't exist yet. Waiting for Fighter 9 just means you'll be a fighter all through BG:EE and the early part of BG2:EE?

leyshjonoe

Yosharian said:

Hello there chaps, I'm considering a special playthrough for the release of BG:EE, a no-magic playthrough where I only use characters that are non-primary spellcasters (e.g. Paladins allowed cos their spells are ****e anyway) or not spellcasters at all (so no mages or clerics!).

This stuck out to me as interesting. Firstly, paladins won't get any spells during BG:EE unless you extend the XP Cap and when you say no spellcasters at all, you say mage and cleric. I assume also sorcerer. What about druid and bard? The challenge will be very different depending on whether you include one or both of them vs. not.

Lemernis

Yosharian said:

Oxford_Guy said:

The only two-handed weapon that you can backstab with is the quarter staff, though there are some good ones.

Well that doesn't seem worth it. I definitely won't bother with that [quarterstaffs for backstabbing] then.

Actually, there are some very powerful quarterstaffs avaiable even in BG1. The Staff of Striking delivers 10-15 damage (although not available until around at least a level 5 party). The Quarterstaff +3 at Ulgoth's Beard does 4-9 damage. Compare damage here:

http://mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate/melee.html

Oxford_Guy

Lemernis said:

Yosharian said:

Oxford_Guy said:

The only two-handed weapon that you can backstab with is the quarter staff, though there are some good ones.

Well that doesn't seem worth it. I definitely won't bother with that [quarterstaffs for backstabbing] then.

Actually, there are some very powerful quarterstaffs avaiable even in BG1. The Staff of Striking delivers 10-15 damage (although not available until around at least a level 5 party). The Quarterstaff +3 at Ulgoth's Beard does 4-9 damage. Compare damage here:

http://mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate/melee.html

Indeed. BTW for a cleric/thief (Gnome or Half-Orc) the only (non-spell-created) weapons you can backstab with a quarter staff or club

Yosharian

leyshjonoe said:

Yosharian said:

Hello there chaps, I'm considering a special playthrough for the release of BG:EE, a no-magic playthrough where I only use characters that are non-primary spellcasters (e.g. Paladins allowed cos their spells are ****e anyway) or not spellcasters at all (so no mages or clerics!).

This stuck out to me as interesting. Firstly, paladins won't get any spells during BG:EE unless you extend the XP Cap and when you say no spellcasters at all, you say mage and cleric. I assume also sorcerer. What about druid and bard? The challenge will be very different depending on whether you include one or both of them vs. not.

What I meant is that Paladins are ALLOWED due to only being semi-spellcasters, and even then I don't think I've ever actually used a Paladin spell, ever.

However I don't want to play a Paladin as the main character because I have played many Paladins before, I've taken about 3 Paladins through BG2 already. I was actually referring to using Paladin NPCs in my game, such as Ajantis.

Druids, Bards, Clerics and Mages are all out. The only exceptions are Paladins and Rangers, as well as Neera because basically she's one of the new characters.

I'm pretty set on a Fighter/Thief of some sort, even possibly a multiclass. But I think Dual will serve my purposes better.

Yosharian

Isair said:

I assume you're using magic items (ie items that allow you to cast certain spells)? The Ring of Gaxx lets you cast improved haste x3 a day & the Amulet of Cheetah Speed lets you cast it once (it's awhile away though) & there's always the boots of speed.

I'd recommend that you dual at 13, since that's when your attacks per round cap out. Belm in your off-hand is a good move, I'm not sure about using the Flail of Ages... I usually abuse backstab alot as a fighter/thief. You can also just aquire a Ring of Free Action so... I'd stick with thief friendly weapons because backstab is half the appeal.

Berserker immunities are fantastic, it's a good choice.

Oh sure, magic items are allowed. Yeah I guess I will go for those items.

Do you really think the extra 4 levels from 9->13 are worth it for 0.5 an attack?

I had no idea Flail was a non-backstab weapon, I know that now.

So it's either:

Longswords
Short Swords
Katanas
Quarterstaves
Scimitars
Daggers

Did I leave any out? Obviously the Celestial Fury stands out, but +3 won't cut it in Throne Of Baal...

Yosharian

decado said:

You of course realise that BG2:EE doesn't exist yet. Waiting for Fighter 9 just means you'll be a fighter all through BG:EE and the early part of BG2:EE?

Er... Can you remove the level cap in BG:EE?

moody_mage

You should be able to on non-iPad versions. Unless you solo or XP farm you might still be struggling for XP though.

Yosharian

decado said:

You should be able to on non-iPad versions. Unless you solo or XP farm you might still be struggling for XP though.

Oh I've done it before, I know how frustrating it is. That's why I don't want to go above level 9 for the fighter class, any more than that would just be tedious.

Mungri

Yosharian said:

Oxford_Guy said:

The only two-handed weapon that you can backstab with is the quarter staff, though there are some good ones.

Well that doesn't seem worth it. I definitely won't bother with that then.

Your loss. Quarterstaves are the best backstab weapon in both BG1 and BG2.

Isair

@Yosharian Yes those extra levels are worth it, .5 of an attack may not sound like much but when you've got a character TWF any extra attacks per-round count. Especially when dualing (no Whirlwind down the line). So using spells/items (solely items in your case) to cast improved haste on yourself is a great solution, that attack will become an extra 1. So if you use Belm in your off-hand & wear the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, have improved haste cast you'll have 10 attacks per-round.

Yep it's a shame about that there flail.

Yosharian

Isair said:

@Yosharian Yes those extra levels are worth it, .5 of an attack may not sound like much but when you've got a character TWF any extra attacks per-round count. Especially when dualing (no Whirlwind down the line). So using spells/items (solely items in your case) to cast improved haste on yourself is a great solution, that attack will become an extra 1. So if you use Belm in your off-hand & wear the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, have improved haste cast you'll have 10 attacks per-round.

Yep it's a shame about that there flail.

But.. level THIRTEEN? Thats 1 MILLION 250 k XP! I'll be a level 9 thief when everyone else is level 15! I won't get back my fighter levels til 2 and a half MILLION XP! I'll be a level 13/13 fighter/thief when everyone else is level 18! Just thinking about it makes me shudder... do you really think it's manageable on a playthrough where I have no access to magic??

Put it this way, dualling at 9 instead gives me 9 attacks per round with improved haste, and a base 10 thac0 at higher levels (thief max thac0).

Dualling at 7 gives me the same, but I lose one use of Enrage, and 2d10 hit dice get replaced with 2d6 (so thats 8 hp).

Dualling at 13 gives me 10 attacks per round with IH, and a bonus of 8 base thac0, and slightly better poly/breath saving throws.

I don't know man, it's all so hard to decide.

Mungri said:

Yosharian said:

Oxford_Guy said:

The only two-handed weapon that you can backstab with is the quarter staff, though there are some good ones.

Well that doesn't seem worth it. I definitely won't bother with that then.

Your loss. Quarterstaves are the best backstab weapon in both BG1 and BG2.

I just can't see giving up Dual-wielding, with all its bonuses, being worth it for a little more backstab damage.

Backstabbing isn't the ONLY type of fighting I'm going to do.

Oxford_Guy

Yosharian said:

Isair said:

I assume you're using magic items (ie items that allow you to cast certain spells)? The Ring of Gaxx lets you cast improved haste x3 a day & the Amulet of Cheetah Speed lets you cast it once (it's awhile away though) & there's always the boots of speed.

I'd recommend that you dual at 13, since that's when your attacks per round cap out. Belm in your off-hand is a good move, I'm not sure about using the Flail of Ages... I usually abuse backstab alot as a fighter/thief. You can also just aquire a Ring of Free Action so... I'd stick with thief friendly weapons because backstab is half the appeal.

Berserker immunities are fantastic, it's a good choice.

Oh sure, magic items are allowed. Yeah I guess I will go for those items.

Do you really think the extra 4 levels from 9->13 are worth it for 0.5 an attack?

I had no idea Flail was a non-backstab weapon, I know that now.

So it's either:

Longswords
Short Swords
Katanas
Quarterstaves
Scimitars
Daggers

Did I leave any out? Obviously the Celestial Fury stands out, but +3 won't cut it in Throne Of Baal...

Clubs are also usable for backstabs

Though in BG1 there are no magic clubs, however I think someone said that the Root of the Problem magic club is being added back in for BGEE, and that's pretty cool - +1/+3 against "unnatural creatures" (whatever that means)

BTW the Dagger of Venom in BG1 is pretty cool, because of the poison damage

Yosharian

I am now considering Wizard Slayer because I remembered how annoying it is trying to judge when / when not to use a 60 second Enrage, and if I've only got two uses per day (or ONE if I stop at level 7 zerker!)... yeesh.

Oxford_Guy said:

Yosharian said:

Isair said:

I assume you're using magic items (ie items that allow you to cast certain spells)? The Ring of Gaxx lets you cast improved haste x3 a day & the Amulet of Cheetah Speed lets you cast it once (it's awhile away though) & there's always the boots of speed.

I'd recommend that you dual at 13, since that's when your attacks per round cap out. Belm in your off-hand is a good move, I'm not sure about using the Flail of Ages... I usually abuse backstab alot as a fighter/thief. You can also just aquire a Ring of Free Action so... I'd stick with thief friendly weapons because backstab is half the appeal.

Berserker immunities are fantastic, it's a good choice.

Oh sure, magic items are allowed. Yeah I guess I will go for those items.

Do you really think the extra 4 levels from 9->13 are worth it for 0.5 an attack?

I had no idea Flail was a non-backstab weapon, I know that now.

So it's either:

Longswords
Short Swords
Katanas
Quarterstaves
Scimitars
Daggers

Did I leave any out? Obviously the Celestial Fury stands out, but +3 won't cut it in Throne Of Baal...

Clubs are also usable for backstabs

Though in BG1 there are no magic clubs, however I think someone said that the Root of the Problem magic club is being added back in for BGEE, and that's pretty cool - +1/+3 against "unnatural creatures" (whatever that means)

BTW the Dagger of Venom in BG1 is pretty cool, because of the poison damage

I've decided to go with scimitars for the offhand, because the Scarlet Ninja-To is just excellent as an offhand weapon. (IIRC the scimitar proficiency works with Ninja-Tos right?)

For the mainhand I doubt I'll go for daggers, cos their base damage is so low. Other than that, not sure what I will go for yet. Longsword has the pretty sweet Angurvadal +5 as an endgame weapon so that's nice, although it takes forever to get (pretty deep into ToB), The Equalizer is nice until then I suppose.

Question about offhand proficiency: how far into proficiency should I go with the offhand weapon? Does having grandmastery in your offhand weapon even matter at all in terms of number of attacks per round? (obviously it will give extra +hit and +damage bonuses when you atk with your offhand)

Another question: If I wield both Belm AND Scarlet Ninja-To, do I get TWO bonus attacks per round??

Silverspirit2001

Another question: If I wield both Belm AND Scarlet Ninja-To, do I get TWO bonus attacks per round??

Yep. But belm just does not cut it in TOB, and you need UAI to use Scarlet Ninja-To.

Yosharian

Can anyone answer the other question?

Yosharian

Ok now I'm confused. You're telling me that 13th level is required, but I don't think it is.

7th level fighter gives 1.5x.

Grandmastery gives 1.5x I believe. (0.5 in unmodded BG2, 1.5 with 'true grandmastery' mod installed, 1.5 in vanilla BG1)

Dual-wielding gives 1x.

Belm/Scarlet gives 1x.

Total: 5 attacks per round (1.5 + 1.5 + 1 + 1 + 1). So I don't need that 13th fighter level at all.

Am I right or am I right?

edit: ah ok apparently BG2's grandmastery does not give you any extra attacks, so that's where the confusion is. I wonder if BG2:EE will have the 'true' grandmastery values... Well if it doesn't, I'll just mod it. So there we go, if grandmastery gives a full extra attack then I don't need to be a level 13 fighter at all.

edit2: ok apparently true grandmastery gives ONE FULL attack as opposed to half an attack, so the final bonus with grandmastery is 1.5x. (liiiiiittle overpowered, I think it should be half an attack.. oh well)

Yosharian

So I'm decided I'm gonna go for a level 7 wizard slayer dualled to a thief, using scimitars. Drizzt is gonna find himself minus one Frostbrand pretty soon.

Isair

Sadly level 13 is still required, the Scarlet Ninja-To does not allow backstabbing. Otherwise it'd be fantastic.

Unless you're a passionate supporter of Wizard Slayers (they're about) I wouldn't recommend one over a Berserker. It's a long wait to get UAI.

DinsdalePiranha

I'd leave the berserker alone, and pick Kensai - there is a shield amulet early on in BG1, solving basically all of it's problems, and taking armor off whenever you want to do some thieving is boring as hell.

also, if you want to be effective as a thief, multi at level 3 - you'll get grandmastery at around the same time (thief 8), the only thing you'll miss is thac0 and a half attack, but in return, you'll be able to backstab very, very nicely, and become viable much earlier.

@Isair: there is (thankfully) a component in... level 1 npcs iirc, which takes care of that bit of dumbness. also, you can easily edit the weapon yourself to allow backstabbing, though both methods mean single class thieves could use it from the get-go - but that's easy to work around. (don't use it until you have UAI)

Schneidend

Berserker/Thief?

...You disgust me.

Mungri

Yosharian said:

Isair said:

@Yosharian Yes those extra levels are worth it, .5 of an attack may not sound like much but when you've got a character TWF any extra attacks per-round count. Especially when dualing (no Whirlwind down the line). So using spells/items (solely items in your case) to cast improved haste on yourself is a great solution, that attack will become an extra 1. So if you use Belm in your off-hand & wear the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, have improved haste cast you'll have 10 attacks per-round.

Yep it's a shame about that there flail.

But.. level THIRTEEN? Thats 1 MILLION 250 k XP! I'll be a level 9 thief when everyone else is level 15! I won't get back my fighter levels til 2 and a half MILLION XP! I'll be a level 13/13 fighter/thief when everyone else is level 18! Just thinking about it makes me shudder... do you really think it's manageable on a playthrough where I have no access to magic??

Put it this way, dualling at 9 instead gives me 9 attacks per round with improved haste, and a base 10 thac0 at higher levels (thief max thac0).

Dualling at 7 gives me the same, but I lose one use of Enrage, and 2d10 hit dice get replaced with 2d6 (so thats 8 hp).

Dualling at 13 gives me 10 attacks per round with IH, and a bonus of 8 base thac0, and slightly better poly/breath saving throws.

I don't know man, it's all so hard to decide.

Mungri said:

Yosharian said:

Oxford_Guy said:

The only two-handed weapon that you can backstab with is the quarter staff, though there are some good ones.

Well that doesn't seem worth it. I definitely won't bother with that then.

Your loss. Quarterstaves are the best backstab weapon in both BG1 and BG2.

I just can't see giving up Dual-wielding, with all its bonuses, being worth it for a little more backstab damage.

Backstabbing isn't the ONLY type of fighting I'm going to do.

You lose a single attack per round from your offhand, big loss. Two weapon fighting is more suited to a Kensai or Swashbuckler, also Berzerker / Thief isnt really as good as a Kensai Thief.

There are plenty of uber quarterstaffs for fighting and backstab purposes, 2 weapon fighting is over rated.

Yosharian

Isair said:

Sadly level 13 is still required, the Scarlet Ninja-To does not allow backstabbing. Otherwise it'd be fantastic.

Unless you're a passionate supporter of Wizard Slayers (they're about) I wouldn't recommend one over a Berserker. It's a long wait to get UAI.

AHHHH you're kidding? Why doesn't it? I thought the scimitar group allowed backstabbing?

DinsdalePiranha said:

I'd leave the berserker alone, and pick Kensai - there is a shield amulet early on in BG1, solving basically all of it's problems, and taking armor off whenever you want to do some thieving is boring as hell.

also, if you want to be effective as a thief, multi at level 3 - you'll get grandmastery at around the same time (thief 8), the only thing you'll miss is thac0 and a half attack, but in return, you'll be able to backstab very, very nicely, and become viable much earlier.

@Isair: there is (thankfully) a component in... level 1 npcs iirc, which takes care of that bit of dumbness. also, you can easily edit the weapon yourself to allow backstabbing, though both methods mean single class thieves could use it from the get-go - but that's easy to work around. (don't use it until you have UAI)

Ok, maybe you're right... It's true that taking armour off to thieve is annoying, I hadn't thought of that. Does the shield amulet have infinite charges? I always forget this...

In your second paragraph, you said multi at level 3? I don't understand that. Did you mean dual at 13? Confused there.

Level 1 NPCs is a mod which won't be compatible with BG:EE at launch, I suspect.

DinsdalePiranha

Yosharian said:

Isair said:

Sadly level 13 is still required, the Scarlet Ninja-To does not allow backstabbing. Otherwise it'd be fantastic.

Unless you're a passionate supporter of Wizard Slayers (they're about) I wouldn't recommend one over a Berserker. It's a long wait to get UAI.

AHHHH you're kidding? Why doesn't it? I thought the scimitar group allowed backstabbing?

DinsdalePiranha said:

I'd leave the berserker alone, and pick Kensai - there is a shield amulet early on in BG1, solving basically all of it's problems, and taking armor off whenever you want to do some thieving is boring as hell.

also, if you want to be effective as a thief, multi at level 3 - you'll get grandmastery at around the same time (thief 8), the only thing you'll miss is thac0 and a half attack, but in return, you'll be able to backstab very, very nicely, and become viable much earlier.

@Isair: there is (thankfully) a component in... level 1 npcs iirc, which takes care of that bit of dumbness. also, you can easily edit the weapon yourself to allow backstabbing, though both methods mean single class thieves could use it from the get-go - but that's easy to work around. (don't use it until you have UAI)

Ok, maybe you're right... It's true that taking armour off to thieve is annoying, I hadn't thought of that. Does the shield amulet have infinite charges? I always forget this...

In your second paragraph, you said multi at level 3? I don't understand that. Did you mean dual at 13? Confused there.

Level 1 NPCs is a mod which won't be compatible with BG:EE at launch, I suspect.

fourth time I've written multi when I wanted to write dual today, so don't be surprised my fingers don't seem to understand the difference.

yeah, I meant dual at lvl 3. if you want to go from BGEE to BG2EE, obviously you can choose to do this later - I went by the "BGEE character only" line of thought.

shield amulet starts with 10 or so charges, but selling to a merchant and buying it back ups it to 50 whenever you want (cost you about 2k gold though).

no info on lvl1 npcs yet, but even then, you can just edit the weapon easily.

Mungri

I didnt know that selling and rebuying limited charge items refilled them, thats definitely a bug that will most likely have been fixed in BGEE.

Isair

Scarlet Ninja-To not allowing backstabs is not a bug, it's a monk weapon - so despite the fact that you can use it with UAI it remains that way. There's a reason for it, just like how the Staff of Magi doesn't allow backstabbing either.

Kensai/Thief is the classic powersauce dual. You don't even have to worry about using the Shield amulet that often, there's alot of spells & potions that can effect your AC even more - Potions of Defence & Invulnerability, Mages can also target you with spells such as Spirit Armor & Blur via spell triggers.

If you have Aerie in BG2 she's the best buffer since she can combine cleric & mage spells into a trigger.