Access and Edit/Save 2da's in Toolset - Why?
TarotRedhand
Member Posts: 1,481
This is yet another one of those suggestions that I haven't seen properly discussed even though nearly 50 people have voted for it. For those that don't know 2da files are simply tables of data used for a variety of purposes by NwN. They are stored in plain text format in NwN unlike the Kotor games which had them compiled. In other words they can be edited and saved by any text editor, even notepad (I wouldn't advise this though). It is possible to create and use your own custom 2da files in NwN.
Given that unless you are using overrides with the toolset (why would you do that?) the toolset has no use for them.
Given that the normal place to put them is within a hak file so that they are gathered together and currently NwN EE has no facility for making hak files.
Given that you can easily edit and save them with any decent text editor.
Would someone please explain to me the sense (in a seemingly senseless suggestion) would you want to add this to the toolset.
TR
Given that unless you are using overrides with the toolset (why would you do that?) the toolset has no use for them.
Given that the normal place to put them is within a hak file so that they are gathered together and currently NwN EE has no facility for making hak files.
Given that you can easily edit and save them with any decent text editor.
Would someone please explain to me the sense (in a seemingly senseless suggestion) would you want to add this to the toolset.
TR
3
Comments
TR
As someone who makes custom content I can assure you it will not make it any easier. What's easier than using a text editor? Being plain text gives me the freedom to choose what I edit them in. If you incorporate them into a module you take away that freedom. As a matter of interest do you know how many 2da files are used by the game, just the official ones that is. For EE I am guessing that there are at least as many as for 1.69. For 1.69 I do know because I just looked. There are 585 2da files that 1.69 can use. But that is beside the point.
Very few unless they only use something like this which I created recently. Which is doubtful as I only created the hak for the demo module.
TR
When I said "incorperate them into a module," I meant in the same vein as modifying the default Bioware scripts, to which they bake to the module upon editing them. I don't need to make a hak to make magic missile function like hellball in all ways except being able to target the ground. Also, are you suggesting that opening the toolset and loading up a 2da in the same way you edit a script is more tedious than finding an external program not everyone knows about and installing it, opening the game files, looking throughout the several expansions' files in order to find which expansion has the most up to date version of a specific 2da, considering the expansion files don't include a full list of past 2das when loading them in NWExplorer, then extracting that to a place you can actually access to open in Notepad? The former is what I'm suggesting. As you said, 2das are overglorified text documents, and considering that while typing this post I tested, and succeeded, in opening a script file in Notepad, so are scripts. Should I have to open scripts in Notepad, too? Considering we already have a text editor in the form of the Script Editor, I don't see why they couldn't just let us edit them in the Toolset.
If I'm wrong and there is an easier way to extract 2da files, then I apologize. However, I would much rather edit them within the Toolset in the script editor. I am not a programmer, so I don't know any of the technical intricacies of modifying the Toolset other than the fact Beamdog is apparently terrified of touching it, but making it find and read the game's 2da files doesn't sound like a big thing to ask.*
*EDIT: Unless even small adjustments to the 2das would require the toolset to restart. I imagine that if they added this feature they would make the toolset update 2da related fields when you saved the changes to the 2da, but if this is unavoidable then it kind of defeats the point of editing it in the Toolset.
But this brings me back to my first question in this thread. Why do you need to edit them in the first place? Unless you are a cc maker the only thing I can see you wanting to do this for is to try to hack the game to try to make it easier.
TR
As for what I need to edit, I primarily go and remake the Animal Companions for my own personal use in the override folder in order to make the Animals less sporadic and accurate to their PnP stats (except the Bear, he gets downgraded to a Black Bear because 27 strength on a first level summon is absurd) while also giving them better AC in the higher levels so that they don't feel like they die instantly , and I still haven't decided whether or not they should have full HP per level (which is the setting I play with). In order for my new companions to show up in game, unless I use the same Blueprint ResRef as the default game Animals which I don't do out of consistency (I usually usually give them the blueprints them dcac_xxxxyy or simply ac_xxxxyy, with xxxx being the animal's name and yy being the level you'll have the animal), I'd need to edit the 2da to fill in the Tag column with the numberless version of the tag.
However, something more pertinent to content/module creation would be making levelable henchmen for a module. While my module hasn't gotten very far so far, it'd be nice if I could modify the appropriate 2das to create a levelup package (feats, spells, skills taken 2das, packages.2da to actually put them in there, feats and skills 2das so I know what number to put with each feat, etc) and without needing to make a Hak to put it in the module just so that my Druid takes the appropriate spells and feats at the level I want them. Granted, figuring out how to make Henchmen work in general seems to be a bit of a chore, but that's a discussion for another day.
I will admit that I did kind of cheat once by editing the Feats.2da to make Sap available to player characters under its old requirements. Perhaps it was because I was using a whip, but it didn't seem to make the game any easier than if I had just taken Knockdown - in fact, Knockdown was probably preferable.
Anyway, I don't think that having 2das editable in the Toolset is a necessity. There are obviously already ways of accessing and editing them, and there may be technical reasons why it wouldn't be possible. This, to me, would simply be a quality of life improvement that, should they have extra time, Beamdog could add to make modding a bit easier, so I see no reason to have it off the table outside of the aforementioned technical reasons.
TR
As TR mentioned, we already have lots of tools to edit the 2da (and tlk) files. Given the state of the toolset, I would strongly prefer we don't have BD try and create a super toolset unless they're going to write an entirely new toolset from the ground up.
So I agree that editing 2da files in the toolset is unnecessary, possibly restrictive, and certainly not a priority.
I think poking at 2das would be a very nice starting point for curious amateurs to get their feet wet in NWN modding. Sure, a lot of people would use it to cheat (why hello cls_*_bfeat.2da), but it's still going to get them into the idea that "I can make this game behave how I want it to".
There's two big obstacles to 2da hacking; the fact that they're hidden inside .hak/.bif files and the fact that they have a non-standard file extension. I'm sure we can all agree that the first is an obstacle - people who don't know what they can or can't do are not going to know they can download something like nwexplorer - but I suspect the second obstacle might need a bit more explaination.
Most people aren't like us computer nerds when it comes to using computers. They double click on files they want to open and hope for the best. If it doesn't open they give up and do something else. They don't think "I wonder what this is? I'll open it up in notepad or a hex editor and have a poke". They also don't read popups - they definitely won't read the manual/documentation or google for it.
People only take the initiative when they feel that they're in control. They need to be able to poke at things for a bit and get some positive feedback to start feeling that. 2das are a fine place for that. The first hit is free, as they say.
People who don't read or look for information on how to open a .txt file aren't likely candidates to successfully modify those files in any meaningful way, are they? Anyone who's going to modify them will have to have information on what they're about, and will undoubtedly know how to open them first.
Also, nwhak.exe works to export assets just fine. Once the .2da is exported you can open it instantly with any text editor.
It is very possible that I'm missing the point though, and I never want to be a guy shooting down someone else's idea or want. Just offering my own opinion on the matter.
Cheers,
-JFK
I can open a file in one 3rd party 2da editor and get the message that the file cannot be opened, and in another it opens just fine. This is quite frustrating in the long run (I guess I can say that being among those who have followed Bioware since 1998).
I would also very much welcome 2da editing in the toolset since 2da is a format that "belongs" to the Infinity, Aurora and Electron engines, and so one can debate if the file format isn't proprietary anyway.
I've been a player of their games since Shattered Steel (Bioware's first release) as if that means anything. Back to 2da files. This proposal just talks about accessing and ediit/save in the toolset. Trouble is you need to do more than that if you make cc. I see no mention of comparing 2 or more versions of the same 2da, nor merging of 2da files. Then there is the verifying of them to make sure that certain data values are within acceptable ranges... Otherwise this proposal becomes even more pointless than before. This is all beginning to add up to unnecessary work for BD. Time that could be spent elsewhere.
As for one prgram to rule them all... The same argument could be made for adding mdl file editing and sound/music file editing "in house", so why just single out 2da files?
TR
I see no mention of comparing 2 or more versions of the same 2da, nor merging of 2da files.
Absolutely. That's one major source for creating mistakes.
As for one prgram to rule them all... The same argument could be made for adding mdl file editing and sound/music file editing "in house", so why just single out 2da files?
That would be simply awesome, but it will never come to pass. Since the format isn't proprietary as such, and software companies that make such programs will be very upset if a freeware program were to subsitute their own gold mines. 2da on the other hand is limited to "our" world, if you know what I mean.
That would be simply awesome, but it will never come to pass. Since the format isn't proprietary as such, and software companies that make such programs will be very upset if a freeware program were to subsitute their own gold mines. 2da on the other hand is limited to "our" world, if you know what I mean.
Since the toolset isn't freeware (it's part of the EE package you buy) while Blender and Audacity are I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
TR
I might be outdated severely on modelling programs. In my days 3DStudio Max and GMax were the ones we used - with most of using the latter, as we hardly could afford - or had the skills to justify using - the former. It may well be there are better alternatives now.
I was a bit unclear about the toolset being "freeware" - what I meant was that it is freeware in the sense that if you buy NWN you get the toolset as well - it's a part of the game. If all those who had wasted money on 3DStudio Max found out that they could have bought a game at a fraction of the price, I suspect that the guys who make 3DStudio Max would be quite upset... :-)
But, as I said, I would welcome the ability to edit and create new models in the toolset - the more complete the application, the better. Editing 2da files is a part of the NWN2 toolset, but it wasn't very well implemented.
I think perhaps though we'll have to settle with agreeing to disagree on this matter.
NWN Explorer, on the other hand, is an integrated tool that is actually designed for CC, has a tabbed interface and previewers. If anything, this is the best candidate for CC editors.
I think one of the more useable seeming tools is the TlkEdit/TlkEdit2 but it's written in java which is not so great, and then you have to install java on your pc.
If I use a tool that looks like it was made 20 years ago or something I think it actually lowers my productivity.
This is just my opinion and I know it sounds completely irrational but there you have it. I like tools that look warm and welcoming and are easy and intuitive to use, where I can just drag and drop files and quickly make edits and tab quickly between open files.
As for row editing and creation I just create a keyboard macro in in notepad++ and then edit manually any differences that need to be there. As I usually make multiple placeables in one go I have found that the up to 3 minutes this takes to not be that onerous a task.
TR
Here's a tip: Notepad++ can mass-add a new column to a 2da via Edit -> Column Editor. (or so I have recently been told)
TR
These options works for me.
Placeables 2da has loads of them, especially if you are using the CEP's as the base for your own so that your project is CEP compatible.
TR
First install the plugin and update the plugin settings to include 2da in the Supported Csv Extensions and a space char for Default Column Delimiter.
Then, when you open a 2da you will then be given the option of opening it in the table editor or text editor. First open it in the text editor and do a regex "find/replace All" on spaces by using a spacechar followed by a + in the Find field and just a space char in the replace field. Save and then reopen the file and then choose the table editor, it supports editing and saving resizing columns, .
I haven't tried it on all 2das, is some have space chars inside of fields then I guess it might not work as desired. Do any 2da files have such intra-field spaces?
PS: and after atom updated the package seems broken. might be fixable in a fork though.
PPS: WOW! Same day and someone just fixed that tablr plugin - see that link and pull it from his fork with the listed apm commands since the project main repo seems to be no longer maintained by the owner.