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Find Familiar in BGEE - not scaled-back?

I noticed that Find Familar is listed as a level 1 arcane spell in the BGEE "Melee and Magic" manual (also as an innate ability of the Beastmaster ranger kit), so it looks like this spell is available in BGEE, though it's not obvious whether any Find Familiar scrolls have been added to BGEE, so it might still be safest to take this as an initial spell until this is confirmed (BTW if you remove this spell from your spell book later, do you still get to keep a familiar already created?).

Also, in example given in the manual (page 68), it says that for a mage starting with 12 HP, the Imp familiar (i.e. the one you get for being lawful evil) this would add half its 18 hit points to the mage's, i.e. adding 9 HP. This is interesting, because this is the same number if HP that the Imp familiar has in SOA, so it looks like the number of hit points familiars have (and the amount of HPs they add to a character) has *not* been scaled back for BGEE.

There were some complaints that familiars were OP for BG1, so I wonder if they've changed something else for Familiars in BGEE instead, e.g. scaling back their innate abilities? In ToB they did the opposite, and actually enhanced familairs, both their HPs and their abilities, so there is some precedence.

My CHARNAME will be neutral evil (Dust Mephit) or possibly Lawful Evil (Imp) in my first run of BGEE, would be interested to know what the actual abilites of these familars will be in BGEE.
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Comments

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited November 2012
    I don't see any indication that the familiars have been nerfed...

    As a reference here's Six of Spade's excellent summary of familiars:

    http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/familiar.htm

    I've been trying to decide between TN or CG for my F-M and this table cinches that it will be CG, for the fairy dragon over the rabbit. Mainly because that critter can cast Mirror Image and Invisibility 10' Radius, each 1x/day. That's actually very useful in addition to the 12 extra HP for the PC.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344
    Haven't heard anything about them being toned down either. They're useful for sure, but I wouldn't say overpowered. Even in BG1 the risk of using them much in actual combat tends to outweigh the benefit, though they do negate the squishiness of early mage play. No more dying to a single gibberling attack or stray arrow.

    And yes, once there the familiar will remain even without the spell in your spellbook.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Lemernis said:

    I don't see any indication that the familiars have been nerfed...

    Me neither, which I'm actually quite surprised about, though I guess low-level mages need all the help they can get!
    Lemernis said:


    As a reference here's Six of Spade's excellent summary of familiars:

    http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/familiar.htm

    BTW they seem to have made a mistake and listed the CN alignment twice, though I assume the first mention is actually for TN (rabbit).

    BTW that whole guide is very good and mostly spoiler-free, I've read other parts of it before
    Lemernis said:


    I've been trying to decide between TN or CG for my F-M and this table cinches that it will be CG, for the fairy dragon over the rabbit. Mainly because that critter can cast Mirror Image and Invisibility 10' Radius, each 1x/day. That's actually very useful in addition to the 12 extra HP for the PC.

    Of the non-evil ones. I agree the fairy dragon looks one of the best, Invisibility 10' Radius is great, the only possible downside is that in TOB I think I read in other guides that they actually get less than 48HP, although this states otherwise (though there are other mistakes in this guide elsewhere,so its possible they're wrong).

    I'm torn between LE (Imp) and NE (Dust Mephit), the AC2 and polymorph ability of the Imp looks useful (especially for the Grey Ooze form, which is immune to magic, would be great vs. Liches), but until TOB gets less HP (and therefore less HP for the caster) than the others, probably to try to balance it. The Glitter Dust and Glass Dust innate abilities of the Dust Mephit familar are also nice to have, at least early on, though AC6 could make it quite vulnerable to missile attacks.

    The CE one (Quasit) looks interesting - can cast Horror and Blur and has AC2, but I don't really want to want to go Chaotic Evil, for roleplay reasons.

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Shin said:


    And yes, once there the familiar will remain even without the spell in your spellbook.

    @Shin - thanks for the info.!
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 485
    Getting permanent +12 hp on Mage at lvl 1 is a bit overpowered imo.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Bercon said:

    Getting permanent +12 hp on Mage at lvl 1 is a bit overpowered imo.

    As some have said before, which was why I was a little surprised to read in the manual that this hadn't been nerfed (of course the manual could be wrong, there are quite a few other mistakes, see the relevant thread in the bug forum...)

  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 485
    I think the maximum HP bonus should either be removed completely or made scale with level. It could be for example 1 HP per level, up to 20 HP at level 20.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited November 2012

    Of the non-evil ones. I agree the fairy dragon looks one of the best, Invisibility 10' Radius is great...

    The invisibility spell is great, and I particularly like that at least once per day I can have the familiar cast Mirror Image on the PC. Frees up a slot in the spellbook.

    I'm torn between LE (Imp) and NE (Dust Mephit), the AC2 and polymorph ability of the Imp looks useful (especially for the Grey Ooze form, which is immune to magic, would be great vs. Liches), but until TOB gets less HP (and therefore less HP for the caster) than the others, probably to try to balance it. The Glitter Dust and Glass Dust innate abilities of the Dust Mephit familar are also nice to have, at least early on, though AC6 could make it quite vulnerable to missile attacks...

    That's a tough call.

    The gray ooze strategy can also be used in BG1. You could have the Imp cast it upon itself, although you'd need a nearly foolproof escape strategy when the spell ends (1 turn + 3 rounds/level). At any rate, don't forget to Quicksave before battle!

    Having a familar cast Giltterdust and Glass Dust from the backrow should be reasonably safe. At least playing vanilla, which those of us will be for the first run who aren't waiting for mods to be updated for BG:EE. After my first playthrough I'll be using the SCS(EE) mod which will render the backrow casters far more vulnerable, i.e., targetted.

    I did read in one of the Trent Oster interviews that the AI will be somewhat improved in BG:EE, but I didn't come away with the impression from Trent's brief comments that it will be as sophisticated as the enemy targetting spellcasters.

    I dunno, I think I'd try the Imp and go with distracting enemies with an ooze.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Bercon said:

    I think the maximum HP bonus should either be removed completely or made scale with level. It could be for example 1 HP per level, up to 20 HP at level 20.

    Maybe, but not the actual HP of the familiar

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Lemernis said:

    Of the non-evil ones. I agree the fairy dragon looks one of the best, Invisibility 10' Radius is great...

    The invisibility spell is great, and I particularly like that at least once per day I can have the familiar cast Mirror Image on the PC. Frees up a slot in the spellbook.
    Isn't Mirror Image a spell you can only cast on yourself? i.e. I think the Fairy Dragon can only cast it on itself (same as with Blur and the Quasit), not on your mage
    Lemernis said:


    I'm torn between LE (Imp) and NE (Dust Mephit), the AC2 and polymorph ability of the Imp looks useful (especially for the Grey Ooze form, which is immune to magic, would be great vs. Liches), but until TOB gets less HP (and therefore less HP for the caster) than the others, probably to try to balance it. The Glitter Dust and Glass Dust innate abilities of the Dust Mephit familar are also nice to have, at least early on, though AC6 could make it quite vulnerable to missile attacks...

    That's a tough call.

    The gray ooze strategy can also be used in BG1. You could have the Imp cast it upon itself, although you'd need a nearly foolproof escape strategy when the spell ends (1 turn + 3 rounds/level). At any rate, don't forget to Quicksave before battle!
    BTW I think the Imp can *only* cast Polymorph on itself, not on your mage
    Lemernis said:


    Having a familar cast Giltterdust and Glass Dust from the backrow should be reasonably safe. At least playing vanilla, which those of us will be for the first run who aren't waiting for mods to be updated for BG:EE. After my first playthrough I'll be using the SCS(EE) mod which will render the backrow casters far more vulnerable, i.e., targetted.

    I did read in one of the Trent Oster interviews that the AI will be somewhat improved in BG:EE, but I didn't come away with the impression from Trent's brief comments that it will be as sophisticated as the enemy targetting spellcasters.

    I dunno, I think I'd try the Imp and try distracting enemies with an ooze.

    I think its abilties are better than the Dust Mephit, but the extra HP from the Dust Mephit might be more useful in the long-run, especially as I will be playing a figher/mage who wants to get actively involved in melee, so its quite a difficult choice...
  • ParysParys Member Posts: 205
    edited November 2012
    Lemernis said:

    (...)the only possible downside is that in TOB I think I read in other guides that they actually get less than 48HP(...)

    That's true. I can confirm. In Tob Fairy Dragon has 24HP and you obtain 12HP upon yourself :\
    This should be adjusted, undoubtedly.

    Edit: Corrected. Thank you, for taking notice.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    @Parys, your post isn't showing properly, wrong number of closing tags perhaps?
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited November 2012
    @Oxford_Guy Oh yeah, no doubt that's right about Mirror Image. I haven't played the game in years now. Oh well, Invisibility 10 ft. Radius is still an excellent spell.

    And sorry that I conflated Polymorph Other with Polymorph Self. I would want a party member tied up with that spell. This actually would seal it for me that I would not want to choose the Imp.

    The Dust Mephit's better HP bonus definitely should prove to be more helpful over the long haul, as you're saying. And it should be fun to live a little dangerously to have the familiar casting those spells rather than being tucked away during battle.
  • HexHammerHexHammer Member Posts: 288
    Once saw a BG I vid with Tutu mod, and the familiar went on a killing spree easily killing everything in the 3 first maps, when the party would struggle hitting and killing things.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    HexHammer said:

    Once saw a BG I vid with Tutu mod, and the familiar went on a killing spree easily killing everything in the 3 first maps, when the party would struggle hitting and killing things.

    Which familiar, the Imp?
  • HexHammerHexHammer Member Posts: 288

    Which familiar, the Imp?

    It was the kitty!

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    HexHammer said:

    Which familiar, the Imp?

    It was the kitty!
    The cat? How?
  • HexHammerHexHammer Member Posts: 288
    edited November 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoVnjZJXBw4
    Jump to 9:56 there the kitty kills Bentley Mirrorshade.
  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Member Posts: 950
    edited November 2012
    I'm planning to play on high difficulty, and will probably defer from summoning a familiar until lvl 6 or so, the stats and bonuses just seem too OP to me. The fun of playing at lvl1 is that its HARD. My weakling lvl 1 mage should be RUNNING for his life from anything above a squirrel. Having a familiar right at the start able to cast invisible seems like a cheat to me. ;)
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    @HexHammer, that was hilarious! ROFL. I followed a no-reload play once where the person used her cat familiar as her main tank for about the first half of the game. Their high dexterity gives them 0AC, and they have 50 percent magic resistance, as well as a 99 percent stealth action.

    I still don't risk my own kitties in battle, though. Mine stay safe in my pack, so the only benefit I get is a few hit points.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344
    HexHammer said:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoVnjZJXBw4
    Jump to 9:56 there the kitty kills Bentley Mirrorshade.

    Result of the poor vanilla caster AI really. With SCS that wouldn't have worked.
  • HexHammerHexHammer Member Posts: 288
    There are many different abilities for each familiar, just dislike the low pick pocket chance, it's kinda worthless unless one wants to reload all the time.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    HexHammer said:

    There are many different abilities for each familiar, just dislike the low pick pocket chance, it's kinda worthless unless one wants to reload all the time.

    I thought ferret was okay for that?
  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Member Posts: 950
    I think it's the cat (someone can correct me if I'm wrong), and they are practically immune to all kinds of spell damage, so they could trip any trap. Quite over powered for BG1.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    I think it's the cat (someone can correct me if I'm wrong), and they are practically immune to all kinds of spell damage, so they could trip any trap. Quite over powered for BG1.

    The cat can pick pocket, but not very well, it's main thing is stealth, ferret is better at pick pockets
  • HexHammerHexHammer Member Posts: 288

    HexHammer said:

    There are many different abilities for each familiar, just dislike the low pick pocket chance, it's kinda worthless unless one wants to reload all the time.

    I thought ferret was okay for that?
    PP Drizzt with 30% chance, doesn't excatly prospect for good chance, in BG II it will rise to 60%.
    ..not excatly sure on the figures.

  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Ohhhh, I just remembered a bug ...

    The rabbit has 50 find traps, but couldnt find hidden doors!
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Oh dear lord, I just found out that the Lawful Evil familiar can polymorph self!!!!!!

    Seriously why doesnt anyone yet realize how absurdly powerful polymorph self is? I'm gonna have to make my solo Swashbuckler / Mage Lawful Evil now.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    edited November 2012
    Mungri said:

    Oh dear lord, I just found out that the Lawful Evil familiar can polymorph self!!!!!!

    Seriously why doesnt anyone yet realize how absurdly powerful polymorph self is? I'm gonna have to make my solo Swashbuckler / Mage Lawful Evil now.

    But won't the familiar still only have its usual hit points and THAC0?

    Also, it can't polymorph to all forms, e.g. no Sword Spider
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    It can! I just tried it in BG1, It gets the actual level 4 polymorph spell, so it can be a spider or a jelly!

    Hmmm, but I dont know about the HP.
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