Epic Precision - or similar alternative
Jimbobslimbob
Member Posts: 206
This is one thing that has bugged me for a while in NWN - and thought it was worth mentioning.
Rogues and Assassins (or anyone that uses Sneak attacks) have real trouble doing damage against a large number of enemies you meet in the game. NWN 2 "solved" this by adding the feat "Epic Precision", which meant you did half your sneak dice (rounded down) against enemies immune to sneak attacks.
Any chance we can get something like this in NWN EE? As it stands, DEX Rogues are not particularly viable because of this issue and forces the player to go STR based instead (should not be the case).
I seem to recall there was a particular class variation in D&D 3e called "Penetrating Strike" (or something) that allowed a Rogue to sacrifice their "Trap Sense" ability for half sneak damage against sneak immunes. This could be another great way of fixing it.
Rogues and Assassins (or anyone that uses Sneak attacks) have real trouble doing damage against a large number of enemies you meet in the game. NWN 2 "solved" this by adding the feat "Epic Precision", which meant you did half your sneak dice (rounded down) against enemies immune to sneak attacks.
Any chance we can get something like this in NWN EE? As it stands, DEX Rogues are not particularly viable because of this issue and forces the player to go STR based instead (should not be the case).
I seem to recall there was a particular class variation in D&D 3e called "Penetrating Strike" (or something) that allowed a Rogue to sacrifice their "Trap Sense" ability for half sneak damage against sneak immunes. This could be another great way of fixing it.
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ACF Penetrating Strike: Only when flanking you can use sneak attack against otherwise immune targets for half dice. You cannot sneak attack such creatures that cannot be flanked, don't have a flank, and cannot use it in circumstances that deny dexterity bonus, it has to be flanking. Replaces trap sense.
ACF Death's Ruin: Apply sneak attack normally at any time whether flanking or denied dexterity at one half sneak attack dice, but only to undead in addition to normal targets. Replaces trap sense.
Vine Strike (plants, for ranger and druid), Golem Strike (constructs, wizard, sorcerer), Grave Strike (cleric, paladin), are all 1 round duration spells that allow sneak attack normally at full dice. You have to multiclass or use scrolls/wands.
Deathstrike bracers are activated 3/day for 1 round and allow the wearer to critical hit and sneak attack any creature normally immune, but not against other sources of immunity like items and class features.
For the crystal socket system there is the Truedeath crystal with the greater version granting the weapon the ability to bypass undead immunity to critical hit and sneak attack. There is also the Demolition crystal that does the same for constructs.
The very fact that such a workaround exists in both PnP and NWN 2 proves that it's less than ideal. A class who's entire purpose is Sneak Attack damage that is completely screwed against Sneak Immune enemies (of which there are many) is a severe flaw.
NWN 2 generally isn't a good basis to draw from in terms of analyzing 3.0/3.5 design because they did so many things differently and made up their own rules.
Paladin gives Deafening Clang, Divine Favor, Holy Sword and Divine Might for about 25ish to 30 damage with a token 13 str investment.
Cleric would give Divine Power, Divine Favor, War Domain, Darkfire, easily 20 to 30 damage there, not to mention healbombs.
Wizard/Sorc is just Flame Weapon for about 12 damage but has other goodies in it's kit like Negative Burst and Interposing Hand for tanking.
Rogue does need some help dealing with sneak immunes, but the way it scales encourages multiclassing.
Pre-epic it has mediocre BAB so there's a big incentive to multiclass for Divine Power or higher BAB to get that extra attack. Post-epic, benefits just die off after level 19 so there's even less reason not to go into something else. And because multiclass Rogues can be very strong and Dex builds have very high AC this is quite a complicated problem.
As for Cleric - more is better. You may want to dip 1 or two Rogue levels for skill access, but there is no way in hell I would split the classes more evenly as it would create a pretty crappy build. If you were going Cleric purely for Divine Power for AB bonuses then I would wager there are better class combinations out there anyway - like a Strength based Rogue/Fighter/Shadowdancer. However, the whole point of this being that Dexterity based Rogues are almost completely useless against a large number of enemies.
None of which solves the inherent problem that Rogues have - which is that their main class feature (Sneak Attacks) are useless against a large portion of the enemies you face. Dealing half of that damage, rounded down to such enemies at the cost of an epic feat or class feature is a reasonable trade-off. It's something that exists in PnP - and something the devs realised was needed in NWN 2.
Which is not to say the bottom doesn't need help, but that a house rule feat like Epic Precision won't be an elegant solution. For a single rapier pure Rogue, it's a nice buff. For a dual wielding kama Monk with a metric ton of buffs, not many things will survive an Improved Knockdown followed by 10 Sneak Attacks.
What Epic Precision will do though, is add yet another must-take feat for Dex builds to become viable, as though Finesse, Ambi, 2WF, I2WF, Imp Eva, Def Roll, Epic Dodge wasn't enough. If anything I want less must-have feats to take. Merge 2WF and Ambi together to save a feat. Have a switch to turn on that makes Finesse innate and add dex to damage, like a "D&D5Finesse=1" or something. I'd be happy with that rather than one more feat to take.
I am not debating whether or not you can create a good Rogue in the game - we are all aware you can. It still doesn't make this any more right. Like I said before, the very point that a work-around exists in PnP and the second game is due to the class's issue's against Sneak Immunes. No-one is saying to forget it entirely, but there should be a way for a Dexterity based Rogue to damage enemies other than relying on elemental/divine damage from other classes. No other base class has a requirement to take other classes because its inherent abilities suck (exaggeration, but you get my point). You have just proven my point with this statement by saying that Epic Precision is a "must-take feat". It is - because it's essential to a dexterity based Rogue!
Besides, I did specifically say in my original post that Epic Precision isn't the "only option" - it just happens to be something that has been done before and works. If there is a better way of going about doing it then that's what we can discuss.
Epic Precision isn't, because it has potential for far too much damage which will force all Dex builds down the same route.
So It's a problem, just that it's a complicated one and I'd rather have a solution that doesn't just do right by Rogues, but also works for Dex Monks, fencer-type Fighters, Dex Bards and other classes that can have a Dex flavor but are in need of more damage.
Opinions about sneak attack like many mechanics may differ and that's because opinions are personal. If a module creator doesn't want to use an available option it is usually far easier to remove it.