bit of addition: in BG1, there also is a very nice, poisonous dagger called (surprise!) dagger of venom, which falls under the short swords category, and is pretty solid for sticking into the backs of those pesky little mages. so yeah, with a backstabby character, stick to short swords... which, unsurprisingly, is what everyones favorite little psychopath, Montaron is proficient in.
Though won't that get the "Dagger" proficiency in BGEE? The rest of the daggers are "meh" (there's a +2 one, but there are swords that are better) and there's no magic throwing ones in BG1, unless they've added some for BGEE.
I do sometimes have Safana wielding the dagger of venom in BGT or Tutu, though, as she gets proficiency in daggers
as far as I can make out from the manual, the proficiencies are back to the ones from the gold old BG1 days, which is awesome, because I goddamn hated the change in BG2. you could also use BG1 proficiencies in BGT/Tutu btw, tweakpack had that option, and I was more than happy to utilize this to it's full extent.
Are you sure? I better have a look at the manual...
BGManual2.pdf (aka Mastering Melee & Magic) page 130, if you're interested. seems like they will use the old grouping.
bit of addition: in BG1, there also is a very nice, poisonous dagger called (surprise!) dagger of venom, which falls under the short swords category, and is pretty solid for sticking into the backs of those pesky little mages. so yeah, with a backstabby character, stick to short swords... which, unsurprisingly, is what everyones favorite little psychopath, Montaron is proficient in.
Though won't that get the "Dagger" proficiency in BGEE? The rest of the daggers are "meh" (there's a +2 one, but there are swords that are better) and there's no magic throwing ones in BG1, unless they've added some for BGEE.
I do sometimes have Safana wielding the dagger of venom in BGT or Tutu, though, as she gets proficiency in daggers
as far as I can make out from the manual, the proficiencies are back to the ones from the gold old BG1 days, which is awesome, because I goddamn hated the change in BG2. you could also use BG1 proficiencies in BGT/Tutu btw, tweakpack had that option, and I was more than happy to utilize this to it's full extent.
Are you sure? I better have a look at the manual...
BGManual2.pdf (aka Mastering Melee & Magic) page 130, if you're interested. seems like they will use the old grouping.
The page you quoted on the manual doesn't really convince me that they'll be grouping the weapon proficiencies like in BG1. While the weapon descriptions are listed categorically like the old BG1 groupings, that could very well just be for the weapon descriptions in the manual.
they have faster weapon speed, so you are more likely to back stab before your stealth is discovered.
However, if you are either very good at hiding in shadows or prefer high base damages, than longswords should be your choice.
So, if you've got good enough stealth and/or are attacking from Invisibility, there's no real reason (apart from RP) to go for short swords over long swords?
isn't their a short sword of backstabbing? would i be wrong to assume it would do extra damage in as a sneak attack weapon?
It is just a short sword +3. It doesn't do any extra damage when backstabbing, at least not any more than any other generically named short sword +3 would do.
<.<; (Smartass response) Short swords are piercing weapons, so you can back-stab. You cannot back-stab with a long-sword as it is a slashing weapon. You would be back-cutting</p>
This may have intended to be a smart@$$ response, but it is essentially correct. Not that you "Can't" 'Stab' with a long sword, but the general idea is to sneak up behind your opponent and slip you blade in between the rib cage and do some pretty hideous internal damage. You are 'Stabbing', not slashing. And the accuracy and precision necessary to slip a blade in through the rib cage, while it is 'Possible' it is generally more likely done with a small blade.
The OP is thinking more of 'Surprise attack' rather than the original Back Stab. And while these mechanics are generally seen to be the same, they really are not at all alike. A surprise attack is to catch someone off guard such that they can't dodge or parry the attack and thus take more damage. The original back stab was to take a small knife or dagger and slip it inbetween armor and ribs and piercing something vital and in all probability killing them outright.
It does require a bit of a suspension of disbelief that you can't do that with a long sword (much in the same way as not believing that a mace would draw blood, yet another artifact of the original rules that doesn't translate well into the group consciousness), but it is the precision of the attack rather than catching someone off guard that does the real damage.
LOL. It's funny but I have recently started playing Borderlands 2. I think it is great fun to snipe the baddies with a head shot for like 6X the damage.
The shortsword of backstabbing is SUPPOSED to add 1 extra multiplier (and have a higher bonus when wielded by thieves, but is a generic +2 weapon when wielded by non-theives), but doesn't (RRB does add the PnP accurate SSoBS), it's just a generic +3 short sword without mods.
Generally, any weapon with a high generic mod will be the best choice (only mods that directly effect the base damage are multiplied...such as the +12 on SotR, but not the +1d4 extra piercing), with minimum damage being MUCH more important then maximum, since you need to plan around consistency. The blade of roses is a VERY nice weapon for early backstabbing in BG2 due to being 2d4+3, which is 1 minimum more then other longswords available, and unlike elemental bonuses is multiplied.
Technically, by the core PnP rules any weapon can be used as a backstab. It's just an attack that targets a vital area on an unaware target....but....if the target expects to be backstabbed because he knows there's a thief about, it won't work, even if he can't see you. Which generally means you only get 1 BS per encounter, or less if you get spotted, barring unusual circumstances (Taking out an enemy in a single blow, while not in LOS to his allies), or the battle breaking up into a chase where you could engineer a new ambush.
BG lets you backstab pretty much as often as you want, as long as you're stealthed or invisible and limits weapon choices to compensate, and the target isn't simply immune (Dragons, Beholders, Demons, and a few other creatures with highly tuned senses can see or sense your presence even if you attempt to strike from concealment, while most golem have no vital areas, undead do since the game apparently uses Romero-style zombie-death rules and vampires of course can have their heart attacked directly or attempted decapitation (surprisingly enough, the vampire's "bugged" AI is for the most part correct...they can smell your living creatures but not accurately determine exactly where you are).
Why it is not possible to 'stab' with a longsword? In many fantasy movies/series I've seen, a big sword user commonly impales the target on the belly or chest, then turns the blade inside, doing a quick slashing motion to spill his guts or destroy his lungs/heart in a gush of blood. Ehh, it is an ugly picture but you get the idea.
So in a backstab, a longsword can be used to slip in between the rib cage or the spine, and then can slash through to do some massive damage. Longswords can stab too, but then they usually do slashing damage to maximise their deadliness. Thus a longsword does more damage than a shortsword, and uses the better damage type:slashing. You can also slash through with a dagger or shortsword but it won't be really effective, you might just nick the target for a scratch:stab it through the hilt and they will do good damage:still not as good as longsword, ofcourse.
I believe there was a Short Sword of Backstabbing in BG1 (+3 short sword) that was supposed to have a bonus +1 to the backstab multiplier. But it was bugged and there was no bonus. Any idea if that was fixed / there are another weapons that enhance the multiplier? I am not sure right now, I believe i used it on occassions (I like to play with short swords/daggers), but never saw a difference.
The PnP-version has a bonus (and the RRB version as well), the non-modded BG version never has, though since it's it's +3 and +3 was pretty rare pre-TotSC it was a pretty good option back then (only Drizzt's scimitars were better).
@Lunar - I think you defeated your own argument when you used the phrase "In many fantasy movies/series".
Yes, it is possible to impale someone with a long sword. But that is not the mechanic that was intended for Backstab. it was intended to represent slipping a small sword or dagger inbetween the small gaps in someone's armor and then inbetween the small gaps between someone's rib cage, and then puncturing small but vital organs such that they cause internal bleeding and death.
Yes, you can do that with a long sword. But it is more or less like performing surgery with a mallet. What you describe is basically a critical hit or a coup-de-gras, not a backstab. Again, a subtle difference, but for the game mechanics, an important one.
@the_spyder do you actually have experience wielding weapons such as longswords and daggers in combat? If not, I would ask if playing fantasy (video)games is any better than watching fantasy movies for giving you insight into how such weapons handle.
Well, A sword is not THAT hard to figure out generally how it handles... But a Longsword is not exactly something that should be stabbed with, it has shard edges for a reason.
It depends on the model of the sword. Most general purpose longswords can stab or slash equally well, it basically depends on the width and thickness of the blade. Rapiers are more for thrusting since they're too thin to take direct impacts perpendicular to the blade without snapping, cutlasses are more for slashing and chopping but due to their broad tips and thickness, were crap for stabbing, though a standard english broadsword design could do either equally well, narrow like a rapier, but still wide and thick enough to not break when slashing.
A backstab is functionally similar to a critical hit, except you take advantage of an unaware target to strike specifically at a vital area deliberately (and as a result deal MUCH greater damage), rather then just getting lucky and piercing it deeply enough with a normal attack. No where in the players hand book does it state that it requires slipping a knife between rips and actually goes further by specifically stating it can be attempted with ANY melee weapon.
While yes, I do agree that your literal assessment of where backstab the word came from is quite true, DnD doesn't in anyway enforce that idea of it.
(BG limiting it to weapons normally useable by single class thieves is part of balancing it with the fact that you can backstab multiple times per round/encounter, unlike PnP which typically limited you to 1 per fight....though why they also multiple a bunch of other modifiers instead of only the base weapon damage (not including enhancement) is beyond me).
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TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLEEEES! ^_^
The OP is thinking more of 'Surprise attack' rather than the original Back Stab. And while these mechanics are generally seen to be the same, they really are not at all alike. A surprise attack is to catch someone off guard such that they can't dodge or parry the attack and thus take more damage. The original back stab was to take a small knife or dagger and slip it inbetween armor and ribs and piercing something vital and in all probability killing them outright.
It does require a bit of a suspension of disbelief that you can't do that with a long sword (much in the same way as not believing that a mace would draw blood, yet another artifact of the original rules that doesn't translate well into the group consciousness), but it is the precision of the attack rather than catching someone off guard that does the real damage.
"He, it's got a spine, doesn't it?"
Generally, any weapon with a high generic mod will be the best choice (only mods that directly effect the base damage are multiplied...such as the +12 on SotR, but not the +1d4 extra piercing), with minimum damage being MUCH more important then maximum, since you need to plan around consistency. The blade of roses is a VERY nice weapon for early backstabbing in BG2 due to being 2d4+3, which is 1 minimum more then other longswords available, and unlike elemental bonuses is multiplied.
Technically, by the core PnP rules any weapon can be used as a backstab. It's just an attack that targets a vital area on an unaware target....but....if the target expects to be backstabbed because he knows there's a thief about, it won't work, even if he can't see you. Which generally means you only get 1 BS per encounter, or less if you get spotted, barring unusual circumstances (Taking out an enemy in a single blow, while not in LOS to his allies), or the battle breaking up into a chase where you could engineer a new ambush.
BG lets you backstab pretty much as often as you want, as long as you're stealthed or invisible and limits weapon choices to compensate, and the target isn't simply immune (Dragons, Beholders, Demons, and a few other creatures with highly tuned senses can see or sense your presence even if you attempt to strike from concealment, while most golem have no vital areas, undead do since the game apparently uses Romero-style zombie-death rules and vampires of course can have their heart attacked directly or attempted decapitation (surprisingly enough, the vampire's "bugged" AI is for the most part correct...they can smell your living creatures but not accurately determine exactly where you are).
So in a backstab, a longsword can be used to slip in between the rib cage or the spine, and then can slash through to do some massive damage. Longswords can stab too, but then they usually do slashing damage to maximise their deadliness. Thus a longsword does more damage than a shortsword, and uses the better damage type:slashing. You can also slash through with a dagger or shortsword but it won't be really effective, you might just nick the target for a scratch:stab it through the hilt and they will do good damage:still not as good as longsword, ofcourse.
Any idea if that was fixed / there are another weapons that enhance the multiplier?
I am not sure right now, I believe i used it on occassions (I like to play with short swords/daggers), but never saw a difference.
Yes, it is possible to impale someone with a long sword. But that is not the mechanic that was intended for Backstab. it was intended to represent slipping a small sword or dagger inbetween the small gaps in someone's armor and then inbetween the small gaps between someone's rib cage, and then puncturing small but vital organs such that they cause internal bleeding and death.
Yes, you can do that with a long sword. But it is more or less like performing surgery with a mallet. What you describe is basically a critical hit or a coup-de-gras, not a backstab. Again, a subtle difference, but for the game mechanics, an important one.
A backstab is functionally similar to a critical hit, except you take advantage of an unaware target to strike specifically at a vital area deliberately (and as a result deal MUCH greater damage), rather then just getting lucky and piercing it deeply enough with a normal attack. No where in the players hand book does it state that it requires slipping a knife between rips and actually goes further by specifically stating it can be attempted with ANY melee weapon.
While yes, I do agree that your literal assessment of where backstab the word came from is quite true, DnD doesn't in anyway enforce that idea of it.
(BG limiting it to weapons normally useable by single class thieves is part of balancing it with the fact that you can backstab multiple times per round/encounter, unlike PnP which typically limited you to 1 per fight....though why they also multiple a bunch of other modifiers instead of only the base weapon damage (not including enhancement) is beyond me).