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Shifted forms and non epic spells, devices, and scrolls.

I am interested in opinions on allowing a shifted form like Dragon shape or Air Elemental etc, to use spellbook spells, devices, and scrolls (like rez scrolls)
And if something like that could even be Implemented?
The problem I have had with for example a Druid...When shifted you cannot use normal druid spells (just Epic), or even rez anyone with a scroll or device, you can cast spells before you shift (what I do) but they don't last very long, you could chance un-shifting to rez someone during battle, but that usually results in instadeath.
I have played quite a few heavily modded servers that could not..or would not do it?
Perhaps it would be too unbalanced? Not at all realistic/lore friendly?
Personally I would love to have this option, at the very least, some way to rez party members while shifted.
Would very much like to hear any ones opinion on this subject, Thank you.

Caliax

Comments

  • raz651raz651 Member Posts: 175
    If you are a dragon why let a good snack go to waste by rezzing it. :p

  • ricoyungricoyung Member Posts: 34
    edited May 5
    Is that some hidden command I missed? "Eat dead party member"... is there a "Regurgitate" one as well?

    DerpCityShia_Luck
  • CaliaxCaliax Member Posts: 2
    edited May 6
    I agree, it would be great to have this option - one way to implement the spell aspect of it could be via a Natural Spell feat like in NWN2 perhaps. It would be ideal if this could work with the Elemental and Dragon shapes, and I think it would make sense to allow it to work for the Shifter forms as well.

    IMO the Druid's two most important assets are its spell casting and its shapeshifting, and it doesn't make sense to have these totally disconnected from each other as is the case in NWN currently.

    Post edited by Caliax on
    DerpCity
  • Drewbert_ahoyDrewbert_ahoy Member Posts: 53
    If it was like that you would never leave greater elemental forms as the damage resistance and strength bonus are so good. It's supposed to be a tradeoff.

  • CaliaxCaliax Member Posts: 2
    That's a good point, which is why I don't think it should be enabled by default but there should be a feat which allows you to do it, or at least I would request that Beamdog enable the community to create such a feat.

  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 518
    It's not necessarily supposed to be a trade off nor would class features automatically have synergy. Each class presents a set of options that can be used or ignored depending on the player, as opposed to an encapsulated play style that never diverges.

    D&D 3.5 has several options such as natural spell which allows some features with a small investment. The argument is that the new form is unable to articulate the precise incantations or unable to trace obscure patterns as part of the spell. The only case where magic simply happens is when it's a supernatural ability or a spell like ability as long as those features are permitted by the form or effect that causes the change.

    Specifically the following sentences are important, first is alter self, where polymorph references "works like alter self" and shapechange references "works like polymorph" so from alter self we have the following: "If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components."

    From the druid wild shape class feature we have: "A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)"

    In addition to that the wild shape feature states: "Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet."

    So if a druid changes into a shape that can satisfy the spell components or can otherwise overcome spell components they can also cast spells without the natural spell feat. On the other hand they still can't activate any gear in their possession, but they could activate or use gear given to them after the change as long as they can satisfy those requirements. It's unlikely you could activate spell completion items or use complex tools in an animal form however.

    It's already possible to script the needed checks for appropriate shapes in the spell scripts. So the best solution is to disable the restriction for all polymorph.2da shapes and then add the checks in spell scripts. Alternatively without Beamdog intervention someone could make a custom system that uses appearances instead of polymorph shapes and then toggling flags on inventory items, and finally doing the spell scripting checks.

  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 225
    My nwnx plugin for old 1.69 had function NWNXPatch_SetCanCastInPolymorph which allowed builder exactly this. Would be nice to get this for NWN:EE, unfortunately nwnx won't be able to do much here as the function required modification on client side which is something we are restricted of now.

  • gkorjaxgkorjax Member Posts: 4
    I'd be happy with (for a start) if shifted forms could use...alchemist fire, trap kits, etc...mundane things....
    Makes playing a shifter very difficult if when it comes time to put some fire to a troll, one has unshift to toss some alchemist fire....

  • ricoyungricoyung Member Posts: 34
    edited May 17
    Thank you everybody for your response and input, and I agree with most all the input (with the exception of eating ones team member,LOL)
    I asked the question knowing what the likely responses would be; "Overpowered and not Canon" and the idea that animals can't speak...might I add with the exception of NPC animals in the game...some Dragons (Klauth and Akulatraxas) and a wolf I can remember off hand do speak?..hmm. IMO would be nice to maybe have extra feats available for this, like still spell but for shifters aka "Natural spell".
    All that being said, I would agree the best course of action would be to leave it open for mod devs to tweak and default to the way it is (no spell casting when shifted)
    This idea is a kind of "pipe dream" for me since I love playing shifted and am a little dismayed that a good 50% of my abilities are useless when shifted, just seems a waste.
    As it stands I usually just run solo a melee dragon shape druid with either some Monk/WM or Monk/Wiz added, some epic spells and usually I have few problems, and when in a decent party with some tanks I can go un-shifted and just cast.
    Reminds me of this song by the Rolling Stones:

    Post edited by ricoyung on
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 518
    It's not about whether it's canon or not, frankly I don't think it matters at all. The issue is the specifics of the rules which show that it isn't a shape problem but a verbal and somatic component problems, or in the case of inventory merging into the form it's a material component problem. That means it doesn't have much to do with the forms at all, it has to do with the spell casting. If an "animal" can talk (technically this would make them either a magical beast or a fey) then there is no reason they couldn't cast verbal spells if they had them. Nature spell is only needed when the form typically can't satisfy the verbal or somatic component, likewise still spell and silent spell achieve the same result.

    To work properly it's entirely spell dependent, metamagic dependent, feat dependent, and form dependent only in so far that they have hands and ability to speak when needed. Hypothetically if a character transform into a gelatinous cube the only way they could cast spells is without verbal or somatic components, nature spell wouldn't help. If you transform into a balor or rakshasa or even a kobold there is absolutely no reason you would not be able to use your full spell casting.

    Of course the same applies to wizards with polymorph and shapechange, many of the forms available for those would require no investment to cast spells.

  • Drewbert_ahoyDrewbert_ahoy Member Posts: 53
    edited May 20
    The idea does have some merit for the basic druid wildshape forms. Looking them over, not sure why you would ever use anything other than the brown bear. You might expect the panther form to give a hide/move silently bonus for example, but it doesn't. Through scripting I suppose you could get the badger form to dig a hole or something, but that's limited. The basic forms need to be improved somehow.

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