Questions on Dual-Class

VikingR

Hi folks,

since I've never tried out the dual-class/multi-class feature in any of the Infinity games, I figured to give it a shot on the 28th.

I was thinking about trying out one of the classic combinations, Fighter/Mage or Fighter/Cleric. I'm leaning towards the latter one, however.

First off, what do I have to consider when creating the character (Race, Attributes, etc.).

Second, when do I dual-class the character. I know that I'm gonna have to play a pure fighter for some time and then a pure cleric. Which level fits best to dual-class in BGI? (I've read some suggestions that recommend Level 3/4 or 6)

Any other important details?

Thanks!

valky

First off, it has to be a human for Dual-classing and it'd go (and will so as well) for Fighter/Cleric and further (had to google, cause I was not sure about):
"Additionally, multi-class fighter/clerics are limited to mastery level in any given weapon type but a dual-classed fighter/cleric, even if he dual-classed at level 2, can obtain grand mastery in any given weapon type." - taken from PlayItHardcore/BG1

That said, i wouldn't go that far with fighter and switch asap, else you are missing out some higher level spells and are not forced to take either Viconia or Branwen. And you'll be able to dish out some serious damage...

I 'abused' the dual-classing Grand-Mastery stuff in BG2 too with Fighter/Rogue; and the additional grand-mastery points made up for not having some fancy rogue-kit. Though I think I dualed @lvl4 as far as I remember, but that's too high for BG1.

[on a sidenote: don't ever multi-class a healer-based class :P That leaves you somewhat crippled as your progress for the spells is insanely slow - just my opinion ^^]

Now for the attributes I would have to lie :P cause I can't remember if you rolled all your stats til you were satisfied or had a given number of points to spent (like NWN2)..but I think you could happily trigger roll until your mouse button is getting damaged. In the latter case: try to get an overall score of ~90 points, that's kinda god-character with possibly 18/51+ strength; Wisdom max. and as the armor does not have a dexterity cap...try to get also 16 points. Int was not that important, so you might spent the last couple points in const (maybe 14~ but not higher than 16) + charisma.

Correct me if am wrong..but it's like ages ago since I played the old rule-system.

sandmanCCL

If you're dual-classing, you have to be human.

Things to consider: The XP cap. You can only gain 161000 XP in BG1, so you have to make sure you leave enough room for you to regain your lost levels.

Something else to consider is your first class is basically dead weight until you recover your levels, so while you can certainly min/max your XP, know that doing so will mean your guy will basically be a gimped single class person for a significant chunk of the game. It's not that big a deal if you're dropping Fighter, though. You'll still have your HP. You just won't have the improved Thac0 and potentially extra attack per round and that's something you should be able to deal without for awhile. To min/max a fighter/cleric for BG1, you can't go beyond level 6 fighter and still regain your fighter levels.

For BG1, I suggest going multi-class instead and being some demihuman race. It's just easier to manage for a newer player and then you get to be a dwarf. Being that kind of sturdy is really handy. The benefits to dual-classing don't really shine until really high levels.

When considering race, basically think "Can I be a dwarf or gnome? If not, then I'll be an elf." This is, of course, assuming you're attempting to meta-game. It's just that dwarves and gnomes are so hardy.

moody_mage

Half-Orcs rate pretty highly on the awesome list of multi-classable races too, especially if you are mixing Fighter with something.

You get less saves but all the strength and constitution you'll need. You also don't drop a Dexterity point like dwarves do meaning a better armour class.

valky

Might be really not a friend of multi-class myself. You'll also miss a lot of important spells and lvl4 spells become very late for you available. And with 161k XP cap you won't even reach lvl 5 spells: no chaotic command, no critical heal, no iron skins, no mass cure....

And why should it harder to manage? You progress like 1-2 fighter level and switch over to cleric...and for early healing spells you just take Jaheira and drop her later on or keep her as she ain't that bad and brings in another fighter.

Though it depends on the player, as you still have the choice to get 2 pure clerics...

moody_mage

I think the 'spam all weapon proficiency points' at level one is going to be curtailed. Only 2 pips allowed to be allocated at level 1 per weapon for a fighter.

*I think*

Time4Tiddy

As a consideration, the Ranger/Cleric is a very powerful multi-class. People love this one because the Ranger gives access to Druid spells, meaning a Ranger/Cleric can cast all the divine spells in the game. I am a huge fan of druids anyway, and love their unique spell lists.

My understanding is that the xp cap was raised for BG:EE because of the additional content, so the concerns about hitting level cap before getting all the good spells may be unfounded. Not sure if they have stated anywhere what the new xp cap is.

sandmanCCL

valky said:

Might be really not a friend of multi-class myself. You'll also miss a lot of important spells and lvl4 spells become very late for you available. And with 161k XP cap you won't even reach lvl 5 spells: no chaotic command, no critical heal, no iron skins, no mass cure....

And why should it harder to manage? You progress like 1-2 fighter level and switch over to cleric...and for early healing spells you just take Jaheira and drop her later on or keep her as she ain't that bad and brings in another fighter.

Though it depends on the player, as you still have the choice to get 2 pure clerics...

@valky: You can't hit level 9 as cleric with the 161k cap anyway. You never hit level 5 spells. Basically, dual-class means fighter 6/cleric 8 while multi-class is fighter 7/cleric 7 at the end. Slightly less spells, extra attack per round going the multi-route and you never have the period trying to rebuild your skills.

It's easier to manage because it's literally roll and go, rather than stress about the period you won't have your skills.

@Time4Tiddy: XP cap remains unchanged. During playtesting, they felt the added levels made the game content too easy.

valky

@sandmanCCL:
the (new) minimum dual-class requirement is now level 6? Then it would make sense to prefer multi-class of course...will check anyway :P maybe even with console and get me some XP for testing...

edit: thought about playing BG2 thereafter with that char

Tokie

So the XP cap affects previous class too? I always thought the cap resets to zero when a human abandon his class.

CaptRory

The XP cap is for the Character. You add up all the experience the character has earned and compare it to the cap.

If the cap reset, a dual classed character could ultimately get like, a level 39 wizard then dual class to a thief and level up to level 40. And it'd be ridiculous hehehe.

jalden

Are you planning on exporting the character to bg2? One thing to consider when making a fighter/cleric or fighter/mage dual class is that fighters receive their final 1/2 bonus attack per round at level 13. More fighter levels will still give you better thac0... although clerics actually have fairly good thac0 by level 20 anyway so there isn't much reason for them to take more than 13 levels of fighter. The extra thac0 would help the fighter/mage.. but that starts to be a really long wait for getting those fighter levels back.

Level 7 also might be a good choice for dual classing a fighter because that's when they recieve their first extra 1/2 attack per round. Hit point progression slows down for fighters after level 9.

For multiclassing, half-orc and dwarf fighter/clerics are both solid. The half-orc will hit harder and the dwarf will get better saving throws. For a multiclass fighter/mage the gnome fighter/illusionist is pretty decent. Gnomes get shorty saving throws and the specialist class will give you some extra spells.

TJ_Hooker

valky said:

@sandmanCCL:
the (new) minimum dual-class requirement is now level 6? Then it would make sense to prefer multi-class of course...will check anyway :P maybe even with console and get me some XP for testing...

edit: thought about playing BG2 thereafter with that char

The dual class requirement is still level 2. It's just that even a single class cleric can still only reach level 8, so it makes sense for a fighter->cleric to get as much fighter levels as possible while still being able to reach max level as a cleric. That corresponds to a fighter level of 6.

valky

that clarifies it ty :P

sandmanCCL

@valky: Yeah, @TJ_Hooker got it. If you hit level 7 with fighter, you won't have enough XP against the cap to also hit level 8 with cleric so the max you can hit while still regaining your fighter levels is 6.

As I've said on many occasions, dual-classing really isn't that "overpowered" or whatnot in BG1. It isn't until xp values capable in BG2 that cheese shows through. The only other additional benefit you'd get if you dual-classed from fighter is you could take some kit which pretty much means Berzerker. Honestly, if you're only hitting level 6 with fighter, I'd recommend just going solo class cleric and picking up one of it's kits instead.

VikingR

I don't plan to export the character to BG2:EE. I always try something new

So what i get from all your advice is: Go for a Half-Orc or Dwarf with the Berserker kit first and dual him later on in the game. Question still remains, what is the best time to dual-class my character?

The Ranger/Cleric kit also sounds interesting.

CaptRory

Only Humans may Dual Class. Other races MultiClass.

valky

@sandmanCCL
Oddly, the main reason is to be able to get the 'Pantaloons' in BG2 for the fun, which only is possible with an imported character. So I need to chose carefully or even reach lvl7 fighter (1.5 base) *eg* and later on with Crom Faer it could be quite funny to have more than 1 attack/p round...even 9 for Grand Mastery - depending on the current cap in BGEE or later in BG2.
There ain't not really a lack of decent healer in BG1 so I don't mind staying pure fighter, but in BG2/ToB 1-star-profiency pure clerics would be rather a joke or I did so already with Viconia & Anomen in different games, but wanted to try something new + maybe 1 or 2 NPC packs. Currently aiming for "Beyond the Law" so I don't need to play a Thief again.

[and I completely forgot the lvl cap in BG as well *whistle*]

..slightly OT ^^

patbaker

When your duel classing look to the long term don't worry about switching classes to soon think about bgee2 and tob you swtch when you get bgee2

VikingR

So you're basically saying dont dual/multi class in BGI since the xp cap is so low right?

Oxford_Guy

VikingR said:

So you're basically saying dont dual/multi class in BGI since the xp cap is so low right?

Not with CHARNAME, is okay with NPCs

ryuken87

VikingR said:

So you're basically saying dont dual/multi class in BGI since the xp cap is so low right?

With a multi doesn't matter, since if you pick multi then you start multi and are forever multi.

With duals in BG1 I would only ever dual low (i.e. level 3) as this lets you obtain maximum level in the second class (most of the time) and gives benefits such as grandmastery. Dualing higher just seems pointless to me since you will functionally end up almost identical to the multiclass, but with an inferior race and a lot more hassle. As per your original question I would do one of the following.

Gnome F/Ill
Dwarf F/C
Human Berserker (3) -> cleric.

sandmanCCL

Yeah, all of the "overpowered" builds for dual-classing need you to progress beyond the XP cap of BG1 in order to accomplish.

At the end of the day, most of them aren't even really that much better than any multi-classed guy.

Vuki

Does anybody know if it is still not possible to dual into a kit (In BG2 it was not possible)? I plan to create a berserker -> assassin but not sure if it is working.

Gadren

For those who have played the enhanced edition now, does BG still have all the additional restrictions for dual classing (beyond the regular PnP ones?) For example, I'm assuming I still can't make a bard/wizard in BG?

TJ_Hooker

Gadren said:

For those who have played the enhanced edition now, does BG still have all the additional restrictions for dual classing (beyond the regular PnP ones?) For example, I'm assuming I still can't make a bard/wizard in BG?

The mulit/dual-class restrictions are the same as in BG2.

Gadren

lame... thanks

ZanathKariashi

Yeah...I wouldn't mind seeing multi-dual classing (can dual into whatever classes you meet the requirements for, as long as you're willing to bare the downtime (example, fighter to 9, thief to 11, Mage to 12+..each losing all abilities till the new class was 1 higher), which is actually legit PnP) and dual-into-kits (assuming the primary class is true class, which..if you used the kits optional rules was legit..and was technically legit in BG1 since specialists are considered a kit)

Gadren

I don't even need it to be that crazy, its just that most of the combos they have seem overdone to me. Bard/Mage was always my favorite 2nd ed combo in my PnP days, followed by Druid/Mage and Thief/Druid.