Trouble Making an Evil Party

Xanatos

My most recent good playthrough included an elven pure Assassin and it was a lot of fun though I felt the power of the kit a little less as the game went on (hard to not get merked early in big fights.
Final squad was Ajantis/Minsc/Branwen/Coran/CHARNAME/Imoen (dual class)

So now I want to complete my first evil playthrough... I've tried several times unsuccessfully but this time is for real! I'd also like to assemble a party with some fun dialogue.

CHARNAME: Fighter/Mage/Thief
Dorn (experiment with character i haven't used before)
Viciona (too good to not use, also drows rule)

And then I have a few characters vying for the remaining 3 spots
Mages:
Edwin (classic top tier mage)
Baeloth (shiny new character to try)
Fighters, thieves or both:
Shar'Teel (never used her before, intrigued by her as an archer)
Montaron (good ol' reliable Monty...)
Safana (fun dialogue, not sure how useful she would be)
Kagain (big beefy boy. broken CON. gotta love a dwarven tank)

So far I've drafted up
CHARNAME: Fighter/Mage/Thief
Dorn: Blackguard
Viciona: Cleric
Safana: Thief
Baeloth: Mage
Shar'Teel: Fighter(Archer)

But again, lack of a tank worries me. I feel like having Shar'Teel and Safana isn't going to work, but if I can sneak by with only my protagonist's thief skills I can drop Safana, albeit with a heavy heart and substitute Kagain.

Am I going to want a second thief with my protagonist dual classed? I feel like without Kagain my party will be severely lacking in the tank department. Baeloth seems intriguing but not being able to get him till way later is discouraging... Though you could argue you don't need a strong pure mage much before that point. I'd also love to find a way to string together units with good dialogue to keep it fun and interesting. Any feedback is welcome, thanks guys!

Very_BigSword

I do enjoy my evil runs so plenty of informed opinion to offer since you asked. My two cents:

Drop Safana and play Shar-Teel as fighter->thief dual (dual at level 3). Dagger to ** at fighter level 3 (see reason later). Give her club and short bow at thief level 1, and dagger at thief level 4 (*** specialisation due to fighter class re-activating). Since you want her as an archer role she can use bow with magic arrows or throwing dagger the rest of the time, enjoying +1 APR for throwing daggers and getting strength bonus damage to boot! Can also dual daggers in melee with options for club and long sword vs piercing resistant enemies. All her melee weapon choices are back stab compatible.

Having two thieves in the party, you can decide which skills to specialise in with each. Typical configurations are one on remove traps/locks/pick pockets and the other on stealth/set traps/detect illusion. I suggest that charname be the locks etc person since back stabs can be achieved with invisibility rather than stealth for back stabbing sprees , also that is suitably evil behaviour.

OK roguery taken care of. Now magery/sorcery. True, Baeloth is later in the game. Edwin is early if you beeline the main quest. You can just run with Edwin until you find Baeloth. Make sure Dynaheir gets her due . In fact you can grab Montaron and Xzar early, then switch to Edwin and Shar-Teel once you exceed 4k experience, then Baeloth for Edwin after 20k experience. Neera and Imoen are also viable alternatives to Monty and Xzar early on, but no comparison on personality. Xzar and Montaron are just adorable if you love your evil.

With Shar-Teel covering Safana's role you now have space for an evil tank. Kagain is a beast with brawling hands on board, he can take all the heat in melee that way. His regen means less need for healing spells so Viconia can do more than just throwing stones and nurse-maid. Early level cleric buff/disabler spells are brilliant.

It is kind of an OP party this way. If you want to make it fair on the AI take Xzar and Montaron for Safana and Baeloth and tank with Shar-Teel.

"Heroism, make way. Villainy coming through!"

thelovebat

A good evil party I really enjoyed playing before involved something like this (could give you a good idea of what kind of party members you'd like with your F/M/T)

• Main Character: Dwarven Defender who dual wields one of their two main Dwarven weapons and doesn't worry about a shield because tanking is fine for extra smashing you can do. If carrying the later mentioned Kagain in my party then War Hammers make a natural choice to go with while Kagain goes for Axes.
  
  
• Kagain: Tanky Fighter with the passive regeneration means even if you don't have a Thief in your party who has the skill to take care of all the traps, you can run him out in front of the party and tank traps, regenerating his health later. Can use spells or potions to give him extra protections to tank traps to an even further degree. And since he ends up with a ton of health, he can do all that tanking. Also a prime candidate for the Gauntlets of Dexterity that you find so he can AC tank and hit point tank. Two Dwarves tag teaming enemies in the front lines is always fun, soaking up all that damage like a sponge.
  
  
• Dorn: Anyone with a 19 Strength can wreak a lot of havoc, and he's the only NPC in the game who has such a high Strength (though Minsc isn't far behind). Also comes with a nice magical sword and the cool Blackguard abilities that allow him to help out a lot against either usual mobs of enemies or spellcasters. The carry weight is great for carrying extra loot, particularly armor to bring back to sell after going through a dungeon. Questline may be hit or miss, depending on the things you like.
  
  
• Edwin: The best overall spellcaster in the entire game in terms of spellcasting. Is a specialist Mage plus his amulet gives him even more spellcasting, so having a low Dexterity isn't a big deal since his Consitution and Intelligence are exactly what you're looking for in a Mage. Also roleplaying wise having him in an Evil party makes sense even if he doesn't seem like the guy to get along with others (you also get some unique interactions in some encounters if you have him in your party). Having him around will help you deal a lot with enemy spellcasters, so if you're playing with a F/M/T you can focus your memorized spells on different things than him.
  
  
• Viconia: Having a good straight up Cleric is a pretty good feeling, and her magic resistance really helps out. Since she's a character you can look at long term from a roleplaying standpoint this makes sense too. If you don't have a Thief then some of her spells will really help out for tanking, scouting, or whatever else, along with refilling everyone's hit points with healing.
  
  
• Baeloth: More additional spellcasting to add to the fray, and he comes with a really nice selection when you get him. His intelligence doesn't help with anything other than his lore value since he's a Sorcerer, but he comes with a really nice robe and a good Constitution so he won't be too squishy as a Mage if archers are out and about. Not having to memorize spells is nice, gives you even further flexibility and just flinging around lots of damage dealers as needed. You could have someone like Viconia bestow a bunch of fire resistance on your Fighters when she gets the appropriate spells for it, then hurl some Fireballs into a mob with Edwin and Baeloth to work evil fiery magic. The only downside to Baeloth? You're gonna be waiting a while before you can get him, so you'll need some other characters to fill in before reaching someone like this.
  

Shar-Teel is really nice, good Strength and Dexterity mean she can be a front liner or use some ranged weapons quite effectively. Starts off with some dual wielding skill as well, so you could level that up a bit with one of her weapon skills to dual wield something. Also can be dual classed to a Thief and leveled up quickly so you can have someone to deal with traps more ideally. Unfortunately, for some reason (at least to my knowledge) Beamdog programmed her and Dorn to not get along very well, so they could end up crossing swords with each other if you keep both in the party.

Dorn to me is the better pick if picking between the two, but if you installed a mod that kept NPCs from trying to fight and kill each other then you could go with Shar-Teel instead of Baeloth if you wanted. Either party setup would still have their own way of dealing with traps, but early on Shar-Teel wouldn't have any thieving abilities anyway so you'd still need to improvise in the early going.

Until you get your ideal party setup, Montaron and Xzar aren't too bad of a pair to help you out, and you can still keep Imoen around for a little bit until you see your reputation start to fall a bit lower. Garrick the Bard can help you out a bit as well and is pretty easy to get to early in the game. Neera as a spellcaster is alright, and you may have some interest in going through her dialogue and questline as a 6th party member for a little bit. Though Neera's spell unpredictability means you should save often in case shenanigans happen.

Safana is a pretty good Thief, but you really need to go out of your way to get her and some of her thief skills inevitably will be leveled up a bit in ways you may not prefer compared to Imoen who you have from the start (or Shar-Teel, who begins at level 1 as a dual class). Safana being in an area where you probably need to be capable of dealing with the Nashkel Mines first, means reaching her without being overwhelmed by the enemies along the way is something to consider. If you have experience playing the game and figuring out your equipment, spell, potion, and etc., options, then you could get along without a Thief I think.

For locks, Dorn can use his 19 Strength to force quite a few locks open without lockpicking. Or your Mages can just use the spell Knock to unlock things that Dorn can't force open. This can allow you the chance to focus your F/M/T's abilities on things that work well for stealth or backstabbing, if you wish.

thelovebat

Very_BigSword said:

Drop Safana and play Shar-Teel as fighter->thief dual (dual at level 3). Dagger to ** at fighter level 3 (see reason later). Give her club and short bow at thief level 1, and dagger at thief level 4 (*** specialisation due to fighter class re-activating). Since you want her as an archer role she can use bow with magic arrows or throwing dagger the rest of the time, enjoying +1 APR for throwing daggers and getting strength bonus damage to boot! Can also dual daggers in melee with options for club and long sword vs piercing resistant enemies. All her melee weapon choices are back stab compatible.

It's my understanding that weapon skills don't end up stacking when getting your old class abilities back with a dual class. So Shar-Teel wouldn't end up with 3 skill points in Dagger if she dual classed with only 2 skill points in Dagger as a Fighter. You could end up raising Dagger up to 3 skill points through your Thief levels though, if you've already gained your Fighter abilities back when having an extra skill point to use.

sibakruom

thelovebat said:

You could end up raising Dagger up to 3 skill points through your Thief levels though, if you've already gained your Fighter abilities back when having an extra skill point to use.

That's what they meant. Once Shar-Teel reaches Thief level 4 she earns another proficiency point, and since she's now Fighter 3/Thief 4 she can use it as a third point in Daggers right away.

thelovebat

sibakruom said:

thelovebat said:

You could end up raising Dagger up to 3 skill points through your Thief levels though, if you've already gained your Fighter abilities back when having an extra skill point to use.

That's what they meant. Once Shar-Teel reaches Thief level 4 she earns another proficiency point, and since she's now Fighter 3/Thief 4 she can use it as a third point in Daggers right away.

Ah, gotcha. I misread part of that and thought they meant Dagger at level 1 instead of level 4. That's probably one of the few reasons to dual Shar-Teel early, getting the old levels back faster and getting that immediate extra skill point when getting the old levels back (may not be able to do this however if she auto levels up past level 3). You could also achieve 4 skill points in Daggers potentially by dual classing Shar-Teel as a level 6 Fighter, though getting the old levels back takes longer. You'll have more hit points and slightly better THACO to work with though I think.

Quartz

One especially cheesy thing to do with Shar-Teel...

Get her to Level 6 Fighter (or level 7 if you wanna get an extra 1/2 APR but be stuck in dual-class Hell for a long time) with three pips in daggers. Then dual-class her to Thief... pick whatever proficiencies you want, then once she's Level 3, keep her there until you know she has enough experience to get her old Fighter levels back. Level her up 4 or 5 levels all at once and voila, you can now have grand mastery.

Edit: Worked in BG Vanilla. I'm wrong. Derp.

Very_BigSword

Quartz said:

Level her up 4 or 5 levels all at once and voila, you can now have grand mastery.

I think you need to get a class to level 9 for that to work in v2.0 and later, so grandmastery in BGEE would not be achievable. Even at thief level 8 you would only be able to raise dagger to ****, then the next pip would come at level 12.

Shar-Teels starting proficiencies are dual wield **, long sword *, dagger *. With the level cap it is not possible to get another 4 profs while her fighter class is active. But if you EE keeper her starting proficiencies to have ** at level one, *** at level three fighter, dual to thief and hold at level three thief before jumping to level 9 I suppose that could work.

Doesn't seem worth it though to carry a level 3 thief with 19 Thaco and 30hp through 70% of the game just to have grandmastery in the closing stages. A fighter 3/thief X with *** then **** in daggers most of the game is far more useful. In a party of 2-4 though, this could be a fun option.

Zaghoul

If modding the game, Verr'sza is a good choice for an evil ranger, Vynd for a drow assassin, and Mur'Neth for a ghaunadan thief.

Quartz

@Very_BigSword Ahh yes, you're right. Appreciate the reminder that Shar-Teel's proficiencies are specced in a godawful manner that ensures I never pick her up in BG:EE.

Xanatos

Wow that's a lot of great feedback. Thanks everyone. I didn't know the fighter thief Shar'Teel had that much potential. But as an archer, I feel like having 18 strength is perfect for bow proficiency because of her access to composite bows, but is there a way to do it efficiently with the way her proficiencies inherently come? (having none in bows to begin with) or am I locked into throwing daggers? Thanks guys this clears up a lot it looks likely to be

CHARNAME - F/M/T
VICIONA - CLERIC
DORN - BLACKGUARD
SHAR-TEEL - F/T
BAE'LOTH - MAGE
KAGAIN - TANK

Edit I obtained my party, besides Bae'loth. In the interim I'm going to use Garrick because I've always wanted to make use of him on a playthrough.

Grond0

Very_BigSword said:

Quartz said:

Level her up 4 or 5 levels all at once and voila, you can now have grand mastery.

I think you need to get a class to level 9 for that to work in v2.0 and later, so grandmastery in BGEE would not be achievable. Even at thief level 8 you would only be able to raise dagger to ****, then the next pip would come at level 12.

Shar-Teels starting proficiencies are dual wield **, long sword *, dagger *. With the level cap it is not possible to get another 4 profs while her fighter class is active. But if you EE keeper her starting proficiencies to have ** at level one, *** at level three fighter, dual to thief and hold at level three thief before jumping to level 9 I suppose that could work.

Doesn't seem worth it though to carry a level 3 thief with 19 Thaco and 30hp through 70% of the game just to have grandmastery in the closing stages. A fighter 3/thief X with *** then **** in daggers most of the game is far more useful. In a party of 2-4 though, this could be a fun option.

It works particularly well for a solo, where gaining lots of XP quickly is even easier. You can also get grandmastery in BG1 by using a fighter to druid dual as well as the fighter/thief dualling options.

Very_BigSword

Xanatos said:

But as an archer, I feel like having 18 strength is perfect for bow proficiency because of her access to composite bows, but is there a way to do it efficiently with the way her proficiencies inherently come? (having none in bows to begin with) or am I locked into throwing daggers?

Best you could do to incorporate longbows the vanilla way is to use the lvl 3 fighter proficiency point and the level 4 thief point to achieve specialisation. Note you would not get specialisation on any melee weapons until thief lvl 8.

If longbows are really what you want to use her for I would use the character editor to reassign her two weapon style points to longbow. At level 1 thief, instead of choosing shortbow, take single weapon style to improve your chances of critical hit backstabs. No shame in using an editor, its single player so reallocate those points to the slots that will give you the most enjoyment for your run.

The trouble with composite longbows is that they waste the damage bonus available from exceptional strength, use them with Dorn or Minsc compared to their melee weapons and you get the idea. They get a flat +1 damage bonus plus whatever you can add from magical ammo (which only gets used occasionally). This is why I suggested daggers and a thief point in short bows, so you get the ammo effects/enchantment bonuses when needed and brutal throwing DPS w/ melee option the rest of the time.

Throwing daggers can be farmed from High Hedge skeleton hordes and Thunderhammer sells unlimited quantities. Stack size of 40 is meh but its manageable.

thelovebat

Xanatos said:

Wow that's a lot of great feedback. Thanks everyone. I didn't know the fighter thief Shar'Teel had that much potential. But as an archer, I feel like having 18 strength is perfect for bow proficiency because of her access to composite bows, but is there a way to do it efficiently with the way her proficiencies inherently come? (having none in bows to begin with) or am I locked into throwing daggers? Thanks guys this clears up a lot it looks likely to be

CHARNAME - F/M/T
VICIONA - CLERIC
DORN - BLACKGUARD
SHAR-TEEL - F/T
BAE'LOTH - MAGE
KAGAIN - TANK

Edit I obtained my party, besides Bae'loth. In the interim I'm going to use Garrick because I've always wanted to make use of him on a playthrough.

For Shar-Teel after dual classing her you can start off with a proficiency point in Shortbows at Thief level 1, since you can't stack the weapon skills you get at Thief level 1 with your old class, so may as well spread them out a little to give yourself more overall options when getting your Fighter levels back. There's some decent magical shortbow options in the game, and her Dexterity will give her a decent to hit bonus. Also characters like your F/M/T and Dorn can use Longbows instead of Shar-Teel, so you can spread out the high quality magical bows in the game evenly that way. It's also better for Shar-Teel as it allows you to focus all those extra weapon skillpoints into her melee options as far as leveling up something super high when the Fighter levels are back. With dual wielding they'll be plenty strong, and you don't have to feel like putting a point into Longbows just because they have an 18 Strength. Shortbows can still be pretty good and it's essentially a free weapon skill.

UnderstandMouseMagic

Lot's of very complicated scenarios mentioned but evil party is the easiest.

To answer the OP about banter, try using the "NPC Project" mod, totally transforms the interactions between NPC. In a very good way. It's really hard distinguishing between original banter and mod, honestly you won't regret it.

Why does your charname have to be triple class?
F/T will cover all the thieving skills you need, my advice drop the magic and don't give yourself a headache looking for a thief.

Shar Teel is a great tank.
So is Viccy, (and she comes with skeletons)
So will be your charname f/t.

This is BG, Edwin spamming web/gease, skull traps ect. and of course charged wands, few get through to melee anyway. Bows, slings (strength spells, Edwin has a ton, later hands of Tazoc for Vic). S-T with the army scyth crossbow.

Who else do you need?
Choose the others for the lols.
I did this on my last run, picked up Alora just for the banter and Xan for a while. Not sure if they killed much overall.

Xanatos

UnderstandMouseMagic said:

Lot's of very complicated scenarios mentioned but evil party is the easiest.

To answer the OP about banter, try using the "NPC Project" mod, totally transforms the interactions between NPC.

Does the NPC project work with the Enhanced Edition? If so that sounds like a great solution and something I wish I'd done with my good party. Besides the occasional Ajantis and Branwen dialogue that was the most dry run through from a personality standpoint.

UnderstandMouseMagic

Xanatos said:

UnderstandMouseMagic said:

Lot's of very complicated scenarios mentioned but evil party is the easiest.

To answer the OP about banter, try using the "NPC Project" mod, totally transforms the interactions between NPC.

Does the NPC project work with the Enhanced Edition? If so that sounds like a great solution and something I wish I'd done with my good party. Besides the occasional Ajantis and Branwen dialogue that was the most dry run through from a personality standpoint.

Yes, it's a very stable mod.

It also includes romances for Ajantis and Branwyn, if you want to persue them. And that gives them both a lot more backstory and personality.

Really recommend it and it gets almost universal praise. It was a big collaberation between a lot of creators and they get the feel and mood of BG spot on IMO.

It's well worth replaying your good party, whoever you take, with it installed.

Xanatos

UnderstandMouseMagic said:

Xanatos said:

UnderstandMouseMagic said:

Lot's of very complicated scenarios mentioned but evil party is the easiest.

To answer the OP about banter, try using the "NPC Project" mod, totally transforms the interactions between NPC.

Does the NPC project work with the Enhanced Edition? If so that sounds like a great solution and something I wish I'd done with my good party. Besides the occasional Ajantis and Branwen dialogue that was the most dry run through from a personality standpoint.

Yes, it's a very stable mod.

It also includes romances for Ajantis and Branwyn, if you want to persue them. And that gives them both a lot more backstory and personality.

Really recommend it and it gets almost universal praise. It was a big collaberation between a lot of creators and they get the feel and mood of BG spot on IMO.

It's well worth replaying your good party, whoever you take, with it installed.

So I installed NPC Project and it's pretty great. Just one thing so far...

I'd like to avoid making a seperate thread if possible...My only romance option in my evil party is Shar-Teel, which is fine. I understand her reactions and circumstances can be a little unpredictable so I'm trying to figure out which global values will help me keep track of my status with her. I completed the first series of dialogues and ended on "fair enough" which comparatively seems to be the best reaction I can get out of her, but I can't seem to get a 2nd dialogue to pop up. I'm going to make the dialogue intervals super short to test it out further tomorrow, but if you could direct me to the global values and what they should be that would be incredible, thanks

UnderstandMouseMagic

Xanatos said:

UnderstandMouseMagic said:

Xanatos said:

UnderstandMouseMagic said:

Lot's of very complicated scenarios mentioned but evil party is the easiest.

To answer the OP about banter, try using the "NPC Project" mod, totally transforms the interactions between NPC.

Does the NPC project work with the Enhanced Edition? If so that sounds like a great solution and something I wish I'd done with my good party. Besides the occasional Ajantis and Branwen dialogue that was the most dry run through from a personality standpoint.

Yes, it's a very stable mod.

It also includes romances for Ajantis and Branwyn, if you want to persue them. And that gives them both a lot more backstory and personality.

Really recommend it and it gets almost universal praise. It was a big collaberation between a lot of creators and they get the feel and mood of BG spot on IMO.

It's well worth replaying your good party, whoever you take, with it installed.

So I installed NPC Project and it's pretty great. Just one thing so far...

I'd like to avoid making a seperate thread if possible...My only romance option in my evil party is Shar-Teel, which is fine. I understand her reactions and circumstances can be a little unpredictable so I'm trying to figure out which global values will help me keep track of my status with her. I completed the first series of dialogues and ended on "fair enough" which comparatively seems to be the best reaction I can get out of her, but I can't seem to get a 2nd dialogue to pop up. I'm going to make the dialogue intervals super short to test it out further tomorrow, but if you could direct me to the global values and what they should be that would be incredible, thanks

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't know myself, I always (well except for perhaps once/twice) play as female.

My advice would be to start a thread and clearly label it Shah Teel romance with NPC Project.
Somebody here will know that's for sure.

One other thing though just in case you haven't realised (I didn't for a long time), is with NPC Project you can force talk to NPC.

butteredsoul

I had a great time running my evil halfling F/Th. Evil NPCs are super powerful. I used a mod (SCS or BG1NPC will do) that made Eldoth accessible early. I did:
Kaigan (best tank and he's a surly dwarf), Dorn, Viconia, Edwin, Eldoth (IDs, spells, wands, and poison arrows).
Then I swapped out Eldoth for Baeloth. It was complete destruction, even with SCS installed, and very fun.

Have a great time!

Xanatos

Small update Shar'Teel romance works, i found the global variable for talks because once they started I got stuck on one that would happen every couple of seconds but I fixed it manually. 3 proficiency point Dagger Shar'Teel is nuts as well. Throwing daggers primarily and sometimes heart of golem+2 and dagger of venom dual wielded. Bae'Loth is a machine gun for buffs and spells, Dorn/Protagonist provide incredible DPS and Kagain is a super tank. I'm enjoying myself quite a lot, NPC mod makes the potentially only "boring" moments interesting.

Xanatos

Also this might help someone in the future I've seen some misinformation about this, or at least based upon my own experience. I have Dorn leading with Algernon's cloak modifying his CHA to 18 and Shar-Teel challenged him to a duel. With her being my new waifu for this playthrough I was actually pulling for her, but when she poisoned Dorn Viciona automatically slowed the poison. It ended up being close but when Shar-Teel got to low hp she admitted defeat and they stopped fighting.

So evidently this encounter doesn't have to be lethal and if you don't want to mess with global values you can just let it happen and sit back and watch. Just thought I'd share.