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I think I need help from a native English speaker. This is related to dialogues of Dorn Il-Khan.

Joan_DaroJoan_Daro Member Posts: 108
It's not something specific; I can usually understand where his quest is going ("kill them all and have done with it"), so I didn't pay him extra attention.
Then yesterday a friend commented that "you whayfaced cur" is not a phrase most people would use to insult their enemies...
So we dug up some of his dialogues, we were not native speakers, but at least I'm sure not all half-orcs talk that way.
I just couldn't pin this down, but it feels like something is very... strange... here. I know that I'm not good at English but I *constantly* need to google certain words he used, and the way he phrase most sentences... have you seen the way Gromnir talks?? You guys are both half-orcs and from the same tribe too, so I take this has nothing to do with childhood education??
I just can't describe the way he speak, WHY is he talking like THAT???
*frustrated*

edit: Another friend told me he sounds like Rexxar. Oh.

Post edited by Joan_Daro on
JuliusBorisov

Comments

  • BladeDancerBladeDancer Member Posts: 445
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,698
    Its an attempt at using older words to make Dorn's dialogue sound less contemporary. Phrases like that are english, but not really used anymore.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,123

    It's "whey faced" not "whay", means pale, sickly looking, associated with going white with fear. Comes from "curds and whey" to invoke the "milk" association, ie weak, childish, cowardly.

    I think the idea trying to be put across is that Dorn is, philosophical(?), a thinker(?), well read(?), sees below the surface(?)
    or up his own backside, you can take your pick.

    As I'm English, the best way to describe the effect I think they are trying to create would be to say,

    if I heard somebody describing somebody as "whey faced", I'd know immediately that they are reasonably well read and educated enough to have understood what they read at more than surface level so they can then use it appropriately themselves.
    It's more insulting than "pale faced" because of the association with milk and milk is considered "not manly".

    English is complicated, I admire your dedication.

    JuliusBorisovRaduzielThacoBellJoan_Daro
  • Joan_DaroJoan_Daro Member Posts: 108
    edited July 17


    It's "whey faced" not "whay", means pale, sickly looking, associated with going white with fear. Comes from "curds and whey" to invoke the "milk" association, ie weak, childish, cowardly.

    I think the idea trying to be put across is that Dorn is, philosophical(?), a thinker(?), well read(?), sees below the surface(?)
    or up his own backside, you can take your pick.

    As I'm English, the best way to describe the effect I think they are trying to create would be to say,

    if I heard somebody describing somebody as "whey faced", I'd know immediately that they are reasonably well read and educated enough to have understood what they read at more than surface level so they can then use it appropriately themselves.
    It's more insulting than "pale faced" because of the association with milk and milk is considered "not manly".

    English is complicated, I admire your dedication.

    Thanks a lot.
    I am currently trying to proofread the Chinese translation of his dialogues. Dedication is required.
    (I've seen people being "coaxed" into his romance by his (badly translated) dialogue text, more than once, so I thought there might be an issue. At least that's why I started, but now I feel like I am reworking basically everything…)
    I certainly don't want to make him sound like someone with a Prof. title, but given the fact that he now sounds like Google Translation, even that would be an improvement…

    edit: I was suddenly reminded of the dragon magazine article and perhaps the way he speaks is a result of... this.

    btw Rancor is really not *that* great...

    Post edited by Joan_Daro on
    ThacoBell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,123
    Joan_Daro said:


    It's "whey faced" not "whay", means pale, sickly looking, associated with going white with fear. Comes from "curds and whey" to invoke the "milk" association, ie weak, childish, cowardly.

    I think the idea trying to be put across is that Dorn is, philosophical(?), a thinker(?), well read(?), sees below the surface(?)
    or up his own backside, you can take your pick.

    As I'm English, the best way to describe the effect I think they are trying to create would be to say,

    if I heard somebody describing somebody as "whey faced", I'd know immediately that they are reasonably well read and educated enough to have understood what they read at more than surface level so they can then use it appropriately themselves.
    It's more insulting than "pale faced" because of the association with milk and milk is considered "not manly".

    English is complicated, I admire your dedication.

    Thanks a lot.
    I am currently trying to proofread the Chinese translation of his dialogues. Dedication is required.
    (I've seen people being "coaxed" into his romance by his (badly translated) dialogue text, more than once, so I thought there might be an issue. At least that's why I started, but now I feel like I am reworking basically everything…)
    I certainly don't want to make him sound like someone with a Prof. title, but given the fact that he now sounds like Google Translation, even that would be an improvement…

    edit: I was suddenly reminded of the dragon magazine article and perhaps the way he speaks is a result of... this.

    btw Rancor is really not *that* great...

    Better you than me, good luck. :)

    Just to add to my post a bit, how does this sound as idea for how Dorn talks as he does?

    Lets say he's well educated/read (and lets not worry about the how at the moment), that he speaks with so many literary allusions or rather like a Shakespearean actor,
    Tells us what?
    That he wants everybody to know. He wants everybody to know that he's not a mindless brute.

    And that's because he is deeply insecure.
    Deeply insecure about his worth, deeply insecure about the bargain he struck with his patron, deeply insecure about being a half orc.

    I think that's why Dorn BG2 was such a disappointment for people who liked him in BG. All that complexity went missing and instead we got "stupid evil".

    ThacoBellEnuhal
  • Joan_DaroJoan_Daro Member Posts: 108
    edited July 18


    Tells us what?
    That he wants everybody to know. He wants everybody to know that he's not a mindless brute.

    And that's because he is deeply insecure.
    Deeply insecure about his worth, deeply insecure about the bargain he struck with his patron, deeply insecure about being a half orc.

    I think that's why Dorn BG2 was such a disappointment for people who liked him in BG. All that complexity went missing and instead we got "stupid evil".

    Well if you're starting with me about Dorn's character then this thread is going to be a really long one.

    IMHO Dorn HAS a complex personality even in BG2, if he gives the feeling of Stupid Evil it's not because the contents are missing, they're just arranged so badly that it's extremely easy to miss them.

    I totally agree with the insecure thing. There's that I-will-fight-you (not the sparring) scene, the dialogue of all the dryads and faeries (they're not even in Dorn's DLG file so you might miss them even if you use NI), the conversation before the paladins' camp, the one upon entrance of the gorge, etc etc. A large number of dialogues contain charname accusing or mocking him of being a servant of the demon and he responds with harsher words or even uncertain words, things may or may not get ugly depending on your response. Even the dialogue in the doorway of the Radiant Heart could lead there (a little).

    It is clear that he struggles between the power granted by Ur-Gothoz and the fact that he's being bossed around like a pawn, but if you don't constantly and consciously poke him with this thing, then he's not willing to talk (which actually is what he'd do but also is bad for communication).

    Also, Ur-Gothoz was monitoring everything he does and speaks (this was mentioned very briefly but it is true) so IMO at least part of his action is not to his own will.

    Actually, in my personal opinion, the resurrection gorge quest is a huge disaster. The "Ur-Gothoz or Azothet" choice was presented so f***ing childish, the map looks like you're in a f***ing Disney park, the dialogues of those dryads and faeries are all but tempting you to "kill them all and have done with it" and thus missing a whole lot of character-related contents, and gives the feeling that Dorn should be sorry for his 15 wisdom.

    Back in SOD, he was (seems) content to be a follower of Ur-Gothoz, by then Ur-Gothoz gives the impression of an Idol, a false god even. But then his own power grows and there was charname if you do his romance and Ur-Gothoz no longer seems that implacable (Ur-Gothoz is, after all, a lvl 10 creature), so no doubt he'll be frustrated.

    I do have the feeling that he's talking in that way consciously, but I have never related this to his insecureness before.

    I'm not quite sure about his attitude towards heritages and civilizations. He seems to blame his human blood for his childhood miseries and now he's in a human civilization, if he's trying to sound well-educated then does he fight against his orcish part or does he fight against this kind of stereotype in general? Both seems unlikely to me...

    Dorn seems to value the name of his old tribe, this is somehow stressed in his romance. He is certainly not trying to blend in. Also this doesn't seem like the way he'll choose to gain respect.

    Post edited by Joan_Daro on
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