Pros and Cons of Raising the Brew Potion/Craft Wand level in a PW

Nic_Mercy

So I'm toying with a module that could possibly end up as the basis of a persistent world. I've been considering raising the level of spells you can use with Brew Potion to 4 and with Craft Wand to 6. Now immediately I see wands of IGMS in my future but I also have the option to make specific spells more difficult/expensive or even impossible to use with these feats.

I'd like to see what others have to say about the pros and cons of doing this in a persistent world environment.

Malclave

I might be more concerned about Wands of Flesh to Stone... but since scrolls can already be scribed, I don't think it would be that big a problem.

Nic_Mercy

Malclave said:

I might be more concerned about Wands of Flesh to Stone... but since scrolls can already be scribed, I don't think it would be that big a problem.

I'm curious why Flesh to Stone is the more concerning spell to you. Would you care to elaborate?

Malclave

On reflection, part of it is spell changes to the Missile Storms on the PW I play on, but item-based Flesh to Stone is effectively a DC 19 Fortitude save-or-die. IGMS at CL 15 (assuming the wand has the same CL as the scroll) is no-save for 105 damage (average) if there's a single target.

A lot will depend on other aspects of the server as well, of course. Whether you use maximum hp per level, how common SR is (the Flesh to Stone scroll has a CL too low to cast the spell, probably to make SR more effective against it), not to mention the levels and encounters where the wands would be used.

Nic_Mercy

Malclave said:

On reflection, part of it is spell changes to the Missile Storms on the PW I play on, but item-based Flesh to Stone is effectively a DC 19 Fortitude save-or-die. IGMS at CL 15 (assuming the wand has the same CL as the scroll) is no-save for 105 damage (average) if there's a single target.

A lot will depend on other aspects of the server as well, of course. Whether you use maximum hp per level, how common SR is (the Flesh to Stone scroll has a CL too low to cast the spell, probably to make SR more effective against it), not to mention the levels and encounters where the wands would be used.

Thank you for your insights! Assuming troublesome spells are made to require a difficult if not impossible to acquire reagent to make a wand (much like a time stop scroll) can you think of any other issues to allowing potions up to 4th level and wands up to 6th?

Malclave

I would just look at the spells and who would gain access to them.

Scrolls already exist for the characters with the spell on their class list.

Anyone can use potions, so characters wouldn't be dependent on other party members for stoneskin, death ward, restoration, etc.

You'd be opening up 5th and 6th level Cleric and Druid spells to all divine casters, and 5th and 6th level Wizard spells to Bards (without a UMD check). There are a couple of Bard spells that Sorcerors and Wizards could get as well.

These may not be problems; they may even be good things for a PW. They would almost certainly give a "high magic" feel to the world, especially if the items are in NPC shops or are relatively common as loot.

Nic_Mercy

Malclave said:

I would just look at the spells and who would gain access to them.

Scrolls already exist for the characters with the spell on their class list.

Anyone can use potions, so characters wouldn't be dependent on other party members for stoneskin, death ward, restoration, etc.

You'd be opening up 5th and 6th level Cleric and Druid spells to all divine casters, and 5th and 6th level Wizard spells to Bards (without a UMD check). There are a couple of Bard spells that Sorcerors and Wizards could get as well.

These may not be problems; they may even be good things for a PW. They would almost certainly give a "high magic" feel to the world, especially if the items are in NPC shops or are relatively common as loot.

I really do appreciate the feedback! Maybe opening wands up that high is just too much... but perhaps potions at 4 isn't so out there. if I do decide to let wands go up to 6 I'll probably make every spell at 5 and 6 require a component that isn't easy to acquire to keep the proliferation of such wands limited. I'd probably make finding out WHAT the component is for WHICH spell part of the exploration of the world... then of course the players would have to hunt down the source of the component.

Shadooow

For an usual PW I see no need to do this. If your PW is one of those with unlimited/legendary levels then ok.

As for issues, if you use community patch there are none. Community patch changes and improves crafting and related resources heavily:
- scrolls can only be used by the class that can cast the spell, ie. bard usage has been removed from most scrolls (bards can still get access to it via UMD anyway)
- umd check for using scrolls has been changed to 7+(3*spelllvl) so it is more balanced towards low lvl adventures and low lvl spellscrolls which are in vanilla almost impossible use with the high dc for the check
- crafted wands class requirements again matches the classes that can cast the spell, thus druid/ranger/paladin won't get free access to the wands with cleric-only spells - umd will be required
- community patch fixes and unites cost of all craftable spells in scrolls and wands (potions too but there it has no effect basically) to match a formula used in 70% of them - this fixes issues like mestil acid sheat spellscroll being usable at lvl 1 (and logically store price as well)
- community patch also fixed and unites spellscripts which are not supporting potions in many cases, this is even a case of few already brewable spells but almost no spell of lvl higher than 3 has a support for potion and will not work properly in such form (more specifically the bug with potions is in giving them to associates, they do work on self)
- also, community patch filtered the selection of spells that could be crafted - in vanilla just raising the limits won't help you much - half the spells will not be allowed to craft into potion/wand anyway and some that doesn't work/make sense will be, community patch changed this so that every spell that works or makes sense in wand and potion could be crafted if you raise the limits
- additionally, community patch allows to add material components into brewing potions and crafting wands via 2da and raise the limits of the max spell lvl to be crafted into potion or wand dynamically without need to recompile anything - so you can change these limits globally for everyone but also locally for specific players
- and, community patch allows to pre-define custom potion/wand to be given to player if you wish, by default both potions and wands are assembled by scripting - script gives player blank potion/wand and adds the cast spell and use limitation properties via script, this feature allows to give player a potionm/wand from custom blueprint which then gives builder full controll over the result item
- and you can also use the previous feature in conjuction with another feature of community patch - dynamic spell overriding, so you can make the spell from potion/wand extended, maximized, empowered, or all 3 metamagics together, you can change the caster level or DC in any way you want


Personally, I used the cpp feature to specify blueprints to replace some of the normally not so usefull crafted potions with potions with different spell (invisibility -> potion with improved invisibility) or duration or strength or both. Imo, raising limits are not that needed/important if you can just make normally useless spells viable instead.

Nic_Mercy

Shadooow said:

Lots of useful info

Thanks for your insights Shadooow! I havent even looked at the cpp yet so perhaps I'll do that before making any decisions. It sounds a bit overwhelming but also like something good to have.

I'm assuming the latest CPP has no conflicts with NWN:EE?

Shadooow

cpp has special version for nwn:ee so there are no issues

Nic_Mercy

Shadooow said:

cpp has special version for nwn:ee so there are no issues

So I've been toying with the cpp and I have to say i really like it thank you for suggesting it!.

I do have a bit of a quandry... looking at the greater magic weapon script, it looks like it should work on ranged weapons in the same manner it does gloves, and the patch notes indicate it should as well, but it doesn't work for me. Using it on gloves works with the switch enabled but there doesn't seem to be any switch to enable it to work on ranged weapons.

Am I missing something or do I need to add in the ability for the spell to affect ranged weapons myself?

Shadooow

Nic_Mercy said:

Shadooow said:

cpp has special version for nwn:ee so there are no issues

So I've been toying with the cpp and I have to say i really like it thank you for suggesting it!.

I do have a bit of a quandry... looking at the greater magic weapon script, it looks like it should work on ranged weapons in the same manner it does gloves, and the patch notes indicate it should as well, but it doesn't work for me. Using it on gloves works with the switch enabled but there doesn't seem to be any switch to enable it to work on ranged weapons.

Am I missing something or do I need to add in the ability for the spell to affect ranged weapons myself?

there should be switch for ranged weapons as well, but it might be possible I cut it together with module switches that were dependant on nwnx plugin which isn't available for nwn:EE

so there are few options:
- wait for new cpp version which fixes this oversight (when confirmed) this probably won't be immediately
- edit the script manually and remove the switch check so it will work on ranged without it
- add variable with switch value (not at toolset now but it should be exactly the string that is in GetModuleSwitch() function) on module with variable 1 - afterall module switch is just a variable on module with fancy name

assuming you want this for your own module, if you would want this functionality in every singleplayer module you play it would require additional steps to make it work

Nic_Mercy

Shadooow said:

Nic_Mercy said:

Shadooow said:

cpp has special version for nwn:ee so there are no issues

So I've been toying with the cpp and I have to say i really like it thank you for suggesting it!.

I do have a bit of a quandry... looking at the greater magic weapon script, it looks like it should work on ranged weapons in the same manner it does gloves, and the patch notes indicate it should as well, but it doesn't work for me. Using it on gloves works with the switch enabled but there doesn't seem to be any switch to enable it to work on ranged weapons.

Am I missing something or do I need to add in the ability for the spell to affect ranged weapons myself?

there should be switch for ranged weapons as well, but it might be possible I cut it together with module switches that were dependant on nwnx plugin which isn't available for nwn:EE

so there are few options:
- wait for new cpp version which fixes this oversight (when confirmed) this probably won't be immediately
- edit the script manually and remove the switch check so it will work on ranged without it
- add variable with switch value (not at toolset now but it should be exactly the string that is in GetModuleSwitch() function) on module with variable 1 - afterall module switch is just a variable on module with fancy name

assuming you want this for your own module, if you would want this functionality in every singleplayer module you play it would require additional steps to make it work

Currently the behavior I am observing is that I can cast greater magic weapon on ammo and it adds an enhancement bonus. Neither the damage portion or the attack bonus portion of this enhancement bonus actually does anything.

I also tried flame weapon on ammo which worked perfectly.

So it seems like something is wrong with how (Greater) Magic Weapon is being handled in regards to launchers (bows/xbows/slings) and ammo. It does nothing to a launcher and gives you the floating message saying you need a melee weapon, and while it does "work" on ammo, it's applying an enhancement bonus (something ammo normally can't have) that does nothing at all.

The expected behavior would be that ranged weapons get an attack or enhancement bonus, while ammo gets a damage bonus appropriate to its type (arrows and bolts get a piercing damage bonus, while bullets get a smashing damage bonus). The actual behavior observed is that ranged weapons are treated as invalid targets and get no bonus at all, while ammo gets an enhancement bonus that does nothing as far as combat is concerned.

Shadooow

i misunderstand the issue then

it might be a badly coded feature or it can be related to 2das, community patch grants new options for many item categories as to which item properties they can have so maybe if you have unmerged itemprops.2da in hak/override that is what is causing the problem

i cannot check it now, will inform you with personal message after I investigate this tomorrow

Nic_Mercy

Shadooow said:

i misunderstand the issue then

it might be a badly coded feature or it can be related to 2das, community patch grants new options for many item categories as to which item properties they can have so maybe if you have unmerged itemprops.2da in hak/override that is what is causing the problem

i cannot check it now, will inform you with personal message after I investigate this tomorrow

Much appreciated! I am very appreciative of the time you took to reply to me, as well as all the work you've done for the nwn community over the years!