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The #1ReasonWhy Hashtag

TygerTyger Member Posts: 4
Check it out if you haven't yet, it's still quite active: https://twitter.com/search?q=#1reasonwhy

More pertaining to this particular community, how different do you think BG would/could have been (or BG3 might be) if there were more women involved in the development process?

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Comments

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,338
    I think it would have been about the same. If more women were passionate about playing computer games on the other hand, it could have been different in a number of ways.

  • TygerTyger Member Posts: 4
    Shin said:

    I think it would have been about the same. If more women were passionate about playing computer games on the other hand, it could have been different in a number of ways.

    It's a bit of a chicken & egg thing though, isn't it?

  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    I think you'll find that a substantial number of women actually ARE passionate about playing computer games :P

    The division between gamer vs. "normal" people has been weakening, but it's still there...

    And, more shops? Pfft. Just point me to the weapon shop and then I'm out. I generally loot everything I need :P

    Ruckus3BaldursCatBoozilla
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,338
    Tyger said:

    Shin said:

    I think it would have been about the same. If more women were passionate about playing computer games on the other hand, it could have been different in a number of ways.

    It's a bit of a chicken & egg thing though, isn't it?
    To some degree probably. It's not an easy analysis. Afaik there are both gender-neutral games and games directly aimed at women though, but I don't know how successful they've been.

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,338

    I think you'll find that a substantial number of women actually ARE passionate about playing computer games :P

    Well, substantial compared to what? Obviously there are such women, but I'm quite certain there are a lot of passionate male gamers for each one of them.

    The division between gamer vs. "normal" people has been weakening, but it's still there...

    Agreed. Ideally one day spending the weekend gaming will have the same status as spending the weekend hiking in the mountains.

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Nope, not touching this thread.

    It seems to me that the women that have been involved in game development up until now have been very successful.

    Any explanation or reasoning behind why there aren't more women involved in game development, no matter how rational, could be condemned as sexism.

    I hope that people pushing for more women in the gaming industry end up with more women on existing teams, and not this two tier system of "Games for guys" and "Games for girls" that some executive somewhere thought would be a good idea.
    I hope we never develop the idea of games which are "girly" any further than it current has been

    More than anything, I hope that more female gamers are exposed to awesome games like Baldur's gate, and not whatever tripe is being marketed to them by PopCap.

    MedullaOblongataswnmcmlxiQuartzBoozilla
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,338
    With the BG concept in mind, why is D&D much more popular among men than women? Because Gary Gygax was male? Because fantasy/adventure/gaming are traditionally more male interests? Because of chainmail bikinis?

  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    Shin said:


    Well, substantial compared to what? Obviously there are such women, but I'm quite certain there are a lot of passionate male gamers for each one of them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic

    Keep in mind, those figures were accurate as of 2004. I'm off to work so when I get there I can look some more.

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,338
    edited November 2012
    @MedullaOblongata That definitely feels like a lot - more than I would ever have intuitively figured at least. It does raise the questions of how a "player" is defined and how the polling was conducted though.

    Here's a simple poll by another well-visited gaming site, from 2011: http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=4333

    The poll also links results from similar earlier polls with similar results.. though a trend where the fraction of female gamers has increased since 2003 can be surmised.

  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp

    Here, this is more up-to-date. 47% of all gamers are women, up from 39% in 2004. And when I said substantial, I meant in comparison to male gamers. I would like to clarify that I mean substantial, and not "surpassing".

  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    Shin said:

    @MedullaOblongata That definitely feels like a lot - more than I would ever have intuitively figured at least. It does raise the questions of how a "player" is defined and how the polling was conducted though.

    Here's a simple poll by another well-visited gaming site, from 2011: http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=4333

    The poll also links results from similar earlier polls with similar results.. though a trend where the fraction of female gamers has increased since 2003 can be surmised.

    That's only a poll on Gamefaqs, though. That only tells me, "5000-ish people who voted on a poll on Gamefaqs are female." To me, that does not say "this poll represents the entire population of gamers."

    Sorry if my response isn't timely, I'm typing on my phone at workband it's slow posting!

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,338
    Yeah, I didn't imply to claim that it meant something specific, but it does show how many people were polled and what the criterion for being included were: visiting gamefaqs that particular day.

    Without background info and details, imo the stats you posted don't seem like a basis for concluding a whole lot either. Is someone a 'game player' if they played a videogame once? Spend x amount of hours per day/week on gaming? Own a console? Own a PC? Own x number of games? Spend x amount of money per month/year on gaming? Completed at least x games throughout their life? Etc, etc. Not to mention who and how many were included in the survey.

  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    Ha, that is something I will have to look up when I'm at home. I can only do so much on my phone :(

  • TygerTyger Member Posts: 4
    ajwz said:

    Nope, not touching this thread.

    Oh snap, you just did! Thanks for your insights :)
    ajwz said:

    I hope that people pushing for more women in the gaming industry end up with more women on existing teams, and not this two tier system of "Games for guys" and "Games for girls" that some executive somewhere thought would be a good idea.

    Indeed. Anything that's exclusive is limiting, including development teams and target audiences. Besides, I'd think that there is more in common between men and women who enjoy strategy games than male strategy fans and male action fans.
    ajwz said:

    More than anything, I hope that more female gamers are exposed to awesome games like Baldur's gate, and not whatever tripe is being marketed to them by PopCap.

    Shin said:

    With the BG concept in mind, why is D&D much more popular among men than women? Because Gary Gygax was male? Because fantasy/adventure/gaming are traditionally more male interests? Because of chainmail bikinis?

    This one's interesting. First, we assume that few women (comparatively) play games like BG - which is probably true. If that is the case, maybe there's an objective reason for that? There have been plenty of examples of women being excluded from tabletop RPGs on twitter today. Maybe this heritage carried over to video game implementations? On the other hand, BG and its ilk were primarily single player games, so you'd think an opportunity to experience something that has been denied to you in your own personal space would interest you. Or I might as well be talking out of my ass for all I know on the subject.

    BTW, how do you know that women who flock to PopCap games are not genuinely enjoying them?

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,851
    If I were a woman I know I would take great joy in going against so many stereotypes, such as this one. It is in my nature to be rebellious in little ways, and then get this ego like "oh man, I am *SO* daring and cool," so yeah that's where I'd be if I were female.

    My sister was the same way, until recently she decided that she was so different from these societal stereotypes that she is, in fact, a man. So now she's trying to become a transvestite, when just a few years back she was happily married* and wanted so much to have children. But no, no children now. No job, no life. All that matters is becoming a man.

    Thanks, society. You are an asshole.


    [[ *They are currently still married but it's not exactly doing well, my bro-in-law says if she keeps up this "I'm not having kids" thing he's leaving her. Because, you know, he signed up for the marriage under the impression he would have kids. Can you really blame the guy? Nope. ]]

  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    @Quartz that situation sounds really complicated. I support transgendered people, but from your description it sounds like she is treating it like a fad... Which does the rest of them a great disservice. And did her husband marry her just for the kids?

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,851
    edited November 2012
    @MedullaOblongata
    Yeah exactly, I'm not hating on the transgendered at all, thank you for understanding that. She does indeed make them look bad because it's more of a fad thing. Transgender is a huge life choice, and of course she acts like "I've always been like this, I just never understood," but trust me, I know my sister better than anyone, for the vast majority of her life she has been perfectly happy being considered a tomboy.
    He definitely didn't marry her just for kids, but it was one of course one his - and her - primary interests. He is not as stubbornly traditional as I am, but he definitely believes that a key aspect of marriage is raising children. If they got married just for kids, I reckon he would've been gone long ago.

    MedullaOblongata
  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    More on topic... I also think BG would have been about the same. Reading the #1reasonwhy makes me want to break my phone in half... Is HR really weak in the games and tech industry or something???

    Quartz
  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    @Quartz ugh I can't stand that. You are right, it IS a major life choice, and in just about every part of the world transgendered are treated violently T_T

  • TygerTyger Member Posts: 4

    Reading the #1reasonwhy makes me want to break my phone in half... Is HR really weak in the games and tech industry or something???

    Yeah some of that stuff can really be infuriating (and here I though I'd never understand Minsc). I mean I've heard/read stuff from time to time, but come on. It's 2012.

    But then again, there are a lot of stupid people in general (just look at pretty much any election). A lot of them just happen to be playing/making games these days. I guess I just unconsciously hoped my hobby attracted "better" types.

    In the end, however, I'm really happy this is getting so much attention. It's beyond due.

    More on topic... I also think BG would have been about the same.

    If that's the case, is there a point to all this?

    MedullaOblongata
  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    Tyger said:



    More on topic... I also think BG would have been about the same.

    If that's the case, is there a point to all this?
    Umm, yes? It was in response to:
    Tyger said:

    More pertaining to this particular community, how different do you think BG would/could have been (or BG3 might be) if there were more women involved in the development process?

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    edited November 2012
    My sister is in a game development program. Some of her male classmates sometimes ask what she plans to do with the degree. Her reply is always a "o_O umm... to make games?", which leaves them completely baffled. After all, how can a woman _really_ be passionate about games? And they always try to think of some other angle on why she's in the program or the computer lab. -_-

    When people mistake Brenda Brathwaite for a booth babe, I get ticked. As if no attractive woman would actually _design_ games. ugh ~_~

    ... On the upside, we deal with more crap. Get stronger. That sort of thing. :|

    EDIT - removed off topic talk

    Post edited by typo_tilly on
    MedullaOblongata
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    What would have happened if more women were involved with the development of Baldur's Gate? I dunno, maybe Skie and Shar-Teel wouldn't have been so broadly stereotyped as "typical fairly helpless woman" and "Straw Feminist". At the very least, I would hope that the Anomen romance would have been a thousand times better and not made many women grind their teeth having to put up with the douche.

    Seriously, though. I have been playing pen and paper D&D since 1977, and I seem to have been lucky enough that except for one convention, I never got any grief for wanting to play RPGs as a woman. And in that one convention, I was playing a game called "Merc", where you played Mercenaries, and I was one of the few people in the group to survive the mission. So... payback, I guess. (Three of the other players were cadets at West Point, where the con was being held. And they looked at me like I'd grown a second head when I wanted to play the game.)

    Ayiekie
  • BaldursCatBaldursCat Member Posts: 432
    I reckon this is one game where relatively little would have changed if more women had been involved in its development.

    One of the things I like about DnD / Forgotten Realms now I've experienced it - and yes I have said elsewhere that it once seemed to me like a boy thing, though that probably says more about the gamers than the game, even though we all loved the DnD cartoon as kids - is the general balance in equality it offers. I suspect the only thing which might have changed is the insistence on more than one female romance option making the final release of BGII and, from my pov, more options to call Anomen out on some of the more challenging aspects of his personality without necessarily putting an end to the romance.

  • State_LemmingState_Lemming Member Posts: 375
    edited December 2012
    Nice to see #1reasonwhy get some more traffic.

    BG probably would've been a more or less the same, since there isn't much in the game that emphasizes gender.

    As for BG2, I imagine the romances might have been improved. Something besides Anomen for starters. The Viconia romance is kind of creepy, female input on some of those conversations would've been welcome.

    EDIT: I completely forgot about Shar-Teel, I realize the term "straw feminist" probably wasn't that common back in the day, but it would've been nice if someone on Team BG realized she was a really awful stereotype.

    MedullaOblongataAyiekie
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,326
    You may want to redirect your kudos from me to @Jalily. She's being overly modest about her efforts, but her contribution to the correctness of the game text is actually immense, and she spotted A LOT of inconsistencies that would have never struck me. If there ever was one who deserved your praise, that would be her.

  • TygerTyger Member Posts: 4
    @Jalily @AndreaColombo @Dave Thanks for all the effort put into this! Half my protagonists are female, but while I did run into some of this stuff from time to time, I had no idea it was so prominent.

    I'd just note that the pronoun problem is more an issue with the English language and its lack of a gender-neutral singular pronoun (and while you could use "they" in some cases, it's really rather cumbersome).

    BTW brilliant use of spoiler tags :D

  • DaveDave Member Posts: 200
    As @AndreaColomo points out, @Jalily deserves the kudos. She caught a lot more of this stuff than the rest of us did.

    AndreaColombo
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