My first NPC depends if I can outrun Imoen or not. Generally nowadays I head on East to Basilisk hell then swoop in solo through Nashkel, then back North to High Hedge for the early level boost wiping out all the Basilisks and Flesh Golems before I consider heading on over to pick up anyone else at their newly inflated level.
It used to be Montaron, but I don't like his weapon proficiencies in BGEE.
Ummm ... Short Swords and Slings? You mean perfectly logical for a Halfling Fighter/Thief? Besides, it's awesome to equip Fighter/Thieves with a shield if you can. And in his case, you totally can.
It used to be Montaron, but I don't like his weapon proficiencies in BGEE.
Ummm ... Short Swords and Slings? You mean perfectly logical for a Halfling Fighter/Thief? Besides, it's awesome to equip Fighter/Thieves with a shield if you can. And in his case, you totally can.
Logical enough, I suppose.
But bg1 is an archer's game. Slings are inferior. With one sling for the cleric and one for the mage the archer battery gets thin if the thief starts throwing little stones as well.
It used to be Montaron, but I don't like his weapon proficiencies in BGEE.
Ummm ... Short Swords and Slings? You mean perfectly logical for a Halfling Fighter/Thief? Besides, it's awesome to equip Fighter/Thieves with a shield if you can. And in his case, you totally can.
Logical enough, I suppose.
But bg1 is an archer's game. Slings are inferior. With one sling for the cleric and one for the mage the archer battery gets thin if the thief starts throwing little stones as well.
No, slings are devastatingly powerful for Multiclass fighters with Specialisation plus Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, by which point you're doing over ten damage a hit with ordinary bullets. With the best sling being a +3 versus a +2 and the ability to use a large shield at the same time, and a racial bonus to hit with them, Slings are both exceptionally viable and potentially even better than bows once you start factoring in haste and the scaling numbers of attacks. With Specialisation, level 7 and the optimum 19 Strength from the belt of Fisting you're looking at 14-17 damage per hit with the +3 Sling and +0 bullets. With the +2 Bow and 3 attacks a round you're looking at 5-10 damage per hit with +0 arrows, giving you less chance of connecting with all three shots and the average damage of hitting with two arrows is still worse on average than hitting with one sling bullet.
But Pan, I hear you declare, Bows have amazing ammo!
Factoring in Acid Arrows, you're looking at 7-22 damage per hit, 21-66 damage if all three shots hit, your target isn't magic resistant and isn't immune or resistant to acid. If you just use +2 Sling Bullets, you're looking at 16-19 per, or 32-38 damage if both shots hit.
Average damage of conditionally effective Acid Arrows: 43. Average damage of +2 Sling Bullets: 35.
8 damage per round, and only if all three shows hit. Throw in Haste, for 52.5 average damage for the sling, 58 damage for the Acid Arrow.
And since Potions exist, in a pinch, Monty can always chug a potion of Storm Giant Strength for a 24 Strength and enjoy 21-24 damage per shot, dealing an average 45 damage unhasted, and 67.5 damage hasted, none of which depends on the enemy not being magic resistant or vulnerable to Acid.
But apart from the slight racial bonus for slings, all these arguments go for each character or NPC. Give them gauntlets this, special sling that, belt of whatshisface, chuck potions, factor in haste, .... But I'm not seeing a lot of parties of mainly sling-users.
(BTW: in an evil party you really want these gauntlets for Viconia, not for Montaron)
And the "information" tab of my party members doesn't lie: sling users (even specialised as my Jaheira) are responsible for far less casulaties than the bowmen. The extra attack makes all the difference. This doesn't go for crossbows, but that's where "the Army Scythe" comes in.
But apart from the slight racial bonus for slings, all these arguments go for each character or NPC. Give them gauntlets this, special sling that, belt of whatshisface, chuck potions, factor in haste, .... But I'm not seeing a lot of parties of mainly sling-users.
(BTW: in an evil party you really want these gauntlets for Viconia, not for Montaron)
And the "information" tab of my party members doesn't lie: sling users (even specialised as my Jaheira) are responsible for far less casulaties than the bowmen. The extra attack makes all the difference. This doesn't go for crossbows, but that's where "the Army Scythe" comes in.
Meh, Viccy can have the gloves, Monty gets the belt.
But yes, all those arguments do go in both directions - give the Archer pricey magic arrows and the magic bow that is the only one of its type in the game, and haste him, and you'll be outshone by a midget with a rock fetish when it comes to raw damage, Slings simply scale better; the simple fact they have more means by which they can be improved and that the common things, like haste, help them more than bows is the important part of the issue, not the exact mechanics of doing so.
Your information page may indeed be correct - I don't know your playstyle, which is the real factor involved with any such estimation, but if you're pulling out a high strength sling specialist with multiple attacks a round from Specialisation and a Warrior class, then ask the question - are the archers dealing most of the damage, or are they simply cherry tapping the enemies that took a high damage sling impact to the face?
Incidentally, not many parties of mainly sling users would exist for two reasons, one is the lack of great slings, the other is the low Strength stats common among the cast. This said, Dorn, Yeslick with the Belt of Fisting, Monty with the Gauntlets and a Charname Ranger/Cleric or Fighter/Mage/Thief with an 18/XX going on 19 strength would make for a rock solid four person ranged team using solely slings - two +1s, the +2 Accuracy sling and the +3 Durlag's sling. Your minimum damage per missile is Monty using +0 pebbles for 10-14 per shot with 2 shots per round.
I imagine most people wouldn't try it because everybody keeps going around the forums claiming that slings are inferior.
Your information page may indeed be correct - I don't know your playstyle, which is the real factor involved with any such estimation, but if you're pulling out a high strength sling specialist with multiple attacks a round from Specialisation and a Warrior class, then ask the question - are the archers dealing most of the damage, or are they simply cherry tapping the enemies that took a high damage sling impact to the face?.
That could theoretically be the case, but it's unlikely because a big hit is each time more likely to take the kill than a little hit. If you want to go in those details, I'd say that's rather an extra argument against the sling, because there is more chance that the kill will involve overkill.
Also: don't forget that each hit (big or little) has a chance of causing spell interruption. Better two small hits than one big. And against non-magic users each hit causes a brief stagger, which slows them down when approaching your party.
Incidentally, not many parties of mainly sling users would exist for two reasons, one is the lack of great slings, the other is the low Strength stats common among the cast. This said, Dorn, Yeslick with the Belt of Fisting, Monty with the Gauntlets and a Charname Ranger/Cleric or Fighter/Mage/Thief with an 18/XX going on 19 strength would make for a rock solid four person ranged team using solely slings - two +1s, the +2 Accuracy sling and the +3 Durlag's sling. Your minimum damage per missile is Monty using +0 pebbles for 10-14 per shot with 2 shots per round.
The absence of great slings again is an argument against the sling. As is the relative scarcity (ie total absence before reaching Baldur's Gate) of strength enhancing items. BTW this wole argument started because I didn't want to use Montaron as a third sling-user (I imagine most evil parties will already contain Viconia and Edwin) in my party. I like the gauntlets for Vicky and the new-fangled belt (which comes even later) can be great for Edwin (or a front-line npc). For Monty I would have liked to buy the Army Scythe, as I did in the original BG, but alas ...
- I'd say that's rather an extra argument against the sling, because there is more chance that the kill will involve overkill.
No, overkill is never an argument against something, the high and consistent damage making it more likely to kill a target in fewer hits is an unmitigated advantage for the Sling over the bow, compared to the higher but unreliable damage that means an Acid Arrow from the best bow in the game can deal a feeble 7 damage and leave someone alive with 1 HP. In turn, the ability to pick off targets at low health (working well in tandem with a sling or an AOE), or disrupt spell casting are advantages for the bow. These are balanced trade-offs.
- And against non-magic users each hit causes a brief stagger, which slows them down when approaching your party.
Given the simplicity and effectiveness of bait-kiting, or simply staying just out of range with a single character even when slower than the enemy, this is almost entirely a non-issue.
- The absence of great slings again is an argument against the sling. As is the relative scarcity (ie total absence before reaching Baldur's Gate) of strength enhancing items.
No, the absence of great slings is an argument against using all the same type of weapon. There exist only three bows of merit, one short, one long, and one a +1 composite bow. Of the three, none give more in terms of damage bonus to a +1 Sling wielded by someone with an 18 strength.
Concerning pre-BG, you appear to have forgot the humble Strength spell, which lasts for hours and gives an 18/50 strength, minimum, to any would-be warrior for +3 damage per bullet.
- BTW this whole argument started because I didn't want to use Montaron as a third sling-user (I imagine most evil parties will already contain Viconia and Edwin) in my party.
No, this whole argument started because you claimed, erroneously, that slings are inferior, then, rather than accept the mathematical demonstration that they were on par with one another, you dug in and started arguing instead.
Something against Edwin using Darts of Wounding, by the way?
- For Monty I would have liked to buy the Army Scythe, as I did in the original BG, but alas...
Shar-Teel uses Crossbows, I'd rather she used slings and leverage her awesome strength, because the Army Scythe is only +1, and doesn't benefit from the Sling's damage bonuses, lacks the Bow's great ammo selection, and apart from that one, singular weapon, is populated exclusively with mediocre tat. C'est la gare?
- That's because, often, there is wisdom in crowds.
No, crowds in general are populated largely by those who are ignorant of the topic. Then the Asch effect occurs, convincing the educated and the intelligent to believe the same misguided things they do and add to the size of the crowd, which in turn converts more to following the crowd.
@Quartz one more thing on the whole Minsc-Chunking, even though I've trolled you and your Minced-Minsc ways, I recently killed him in my Neutral Evil playthrough because I wasn't very nice when he first encountered me. So.... I've come to the dark side (but he is still a member of my team in my good playthrough)
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So.... I guess my first NPC is Korax?
But bg1 is an archer's game. Slings are inferior. With one sling for the cleric and one for the mage the archer battery gets thin if the thief starts throwing little stones as well.
With Specialisation, level 7 and the optimum 19 Strength from the belt of Fisting you're looking at 14-17 damage per hit with the +3 Sling and +0 bullets.
With the +2 Bow and 3 attacks a round you're looking at 5-10 damage per hit with +0 arrows, giving you less chance of connecting with all three shots and the average damage of hitting with two arrows is still worse on average than hitting with one sling bullet.
But Pan, I hear you declare, Bows have amazing ammo!
Factoring in Acid Arrows, you're looking at 7-22 damage per hit, 21-66 damage if all three shots hit, your target isn't magic resistant and isn't immune or resistant to acid. If you just use +2 Sling Bullets, you're looking at 16-19 per, or 32-38 damage if both shots hit.
Average damage of conditionally effective Acid Arrows: 43.
Average damage of +2 Sling Bullets: 35.
8 damage per round, and only if all three shows hit. Throw in Haste, for 52.5 average damage for the sling, 58 damage for the Acid Arrow.
And since Potions exist, in a pinch, Monty can always chug a potion of Storm Giant Strength for a 24 Strength and enjoy 21-24 damage per shot, dealing an average 45 damage unhasted, and 67.5 damage hasted, none of which depends on the enemy not being magic resistant or vulnerable to Acid.
So enjoy your bows. Real halfling men use slings.
And steroids.
But apart from the slight racial bonus for slings, all these arguments go for each character or NPC.
Give them gauntlets this, special sling that, belt of whatshisface, chuck potions, factor in haste, .... But I'm not seeing a lot of parties of mainly sling-users.
(BTW: in an evil party you really want these gauntlets for Viconia, not for Montaron)
And the "information" tab of my party members doesn't lie: sling users (even specialised as my Jaheira) are responsible for far less casulaties than the bowmen. The extra attack makes all the difference. This doesn't go for crossbows, but that's where "the Army Scythe" comes in.
But yes, all those arguments do go in both directions - give the Archer pricey magic arrows and the magic bow that is the only one of its type in the game, and haste him, and you'll be outshone by a midget with a rock fetish when it comes to raw damage, Slings simply scale better; the simple fact they have more means by which they can be improved and that the common things, like haste, help them more than bows is the important part of the issue, not the exact mechanics of doing so.
Your information page may indeed be correct - I don't know your playstyle, which is the real factor involved with any such estimation, but if you're pulling out a high strength sling specialist with multiple attacks a round from Specialisation and a Warrior class, then ask the question - are the archers dealing most of the damage, or are they simply cherry tapping the enemies that took a high damage sling impact to the face?
Incidentally, not many parties of mainly sling users would exist for two reasons, one is the lack of great slings, the other is the low Strength stats common among the cast. This said, Dorn, Yeslick with the Belt of Fisting, Monty with the Gauntlets and a Charname Ranger/Cleric or Fighter/Mage/Thief with an 18/XX going on 19 strength would make for a rock solid four person ranged team using solely slings - two +1s, the +2 Accuracy sling and the +3 Durlag's sling. Your minimum damage per missile is Monty using +0 pebbles for 10-14 per shot with 2 shots per round.
I imagine most people wouldn't try it because everybody keeps going around the forums claiming that slings are inferior.
Also: don't forget that each hit (big or little) has a chance of causing spell interruption. Better two small hits than one big. And against non-magic users each hit causes a brief stagger, which slows them down when approaching your party. The absence of great slings again is an argument against the sling. As is the relative scarcity (ie total absence before reaching Baldur's Gate) of strength enhancing items.
BTW this wole argument started because I didn't want to use Montaron as a third sling-user (I imagine most evil parties will already contain Viconia and Edwin) in my party. I like the gauntlets for Vicky and the new-fangled belt (which comes even later) can be great for Edwin (or a front-line npc). For Monty I would have liked to buy the Army Scythe, as I did in the original BG, but alas ... That's because, often, there is wisdom in crowds.
No, overkill is never an argument against something, the high and consistent damage making it more likely to kill a target in fewer hits is an unmitigated advantage for the Sling over the bow, compared to the higher but unreliable damage that means an Acid Arrow from the best bow in the game can deal a feeble 7 damage and leave someone alive with 1 HP.
In turn, the ability to pick off targets at low health (working well in tandem with a sling or an AOE), or disrupt spell casting are advantages for the bow. These are balanced trade-offs.
- And against non-magic users each hit causes a brief stagger, which slows them down when approaching your party.
Given the simplicity and effectiveness of bait-kiting, or simply staying just out of range with a single character even when slower than the enemy, this is almost entirely a non-issue.
- The absence of great slings again is an argument against the sling. As is the relative scarcity (ie total absence before reaching Baldur's Gate) of strength enhancing items.
No, the absence of great slings is an argument against using all the same type of weapon. There exist only three bows of merit, one short, one long, and one a +1 composite bow. Of the three, none give more in terms of damage bonus to a +1 Sling wielded by someone with an 18 strength.
Concerning pre-BG, you appear to have forgot the humble Strength spell, which lasts for hours and gives an 18/50 strength, minimum, to any would-be warrior for +3 damage per bullet.
- BTW this whole argument started because I didn't want to use Montaron as a third sling-user (I imagine most evil parties will already contain Viconia and Edwin) in my party.
No, this whole argument started because you claimed, erroneously, that slings are inferior, then, rather than accept the mathematical demonstration that they were on par with one another, you dug in and started arguing instead.
Something against Edwin using Darts of Wounding, by the way?
- For Monty I would have liked to buy the Army Scythe, as I did in the original BG, but alas...
Shar-Teel uses Crossbows, I'd rather she used slings and leverage her awesome strength, because the Army Scythe is only +1, and doesn't benefit from the Sling's damage bonuses, lacks the Bow's great ammo selection, and apart from that one, singular weapon, is populated exclusively with mediocre tat. C'est la gare?
- That's because, often, there is wisdom in crowds.
No, crowds in general are populated largely by those who are ignorant of the topic. Then the Asch effect occurs, convincing the educated and the intelligent to believe the same misguided things they do and add to the size of the crowd, which in turn converts more to following the crowd.