Unarmed team

monico

Hi everyone,

After thousands and thousands of playthroughs (mostly unfinished ones, as I have this sickness that each time I try a new concept, dozens of other ideas come to mind), I want to try something different.

For a long time now, I have wanted to use some underused (at least for me) spells, mainly the arcane touch spells.
The new version of the Enchanted Weapon spell also got me intrigued (I though it could be funny for example to have an evil wizard or sorcerer with this spell cast on his "minions", 4 half-orcs using plain clubs enchanted by the spell... but it would be boring very fast to cast this spell before each fight and then just hack skulls).

The polimorph spells (the lvl4 and lvl9 mage spells), that i have never used, are also interesting to me (especially after reading this guide : https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/17543/guide-to-polymorph-self)

Which, after a bit of fiddling, got me to the idea of making an unarmed team : basically, a kind of poverty run, where my custom team would not use any enchanted weapons.

So, the team could be like this (maybe not the most powergaming one, but the most RP at least) :

- one monk (probably sunsoul monk, since i've already used the dark moon one and DMM's innate abilities would have redundancy with my mage)
- a shapeshifter, since wherewolves fit really well on a RP standpoint, plus druids have a handful of touch spells as well
- some kind of melee mage, who would use those low-level touch spells (shocking grasp and chill touch at lvl1, ghoul touch at lvl2, etc., switching to polymorphings at spelllevel 4 and onward), along with a lot of defensive buffs obviously.

Now, the difficulty is setting this melee mage, and that is where I'd like your inputs.

It could be :
- a sorcerer (especially a dragon disciple for a bit of extra tankiness) for the benefit of not having to chase those spell scrolls. Problem is, I don't see how his thac0, even enhanced with gear/buffs/extra strength could allow him to hit anything past small BG1 critters. Maybe that's where the polymorphs will shine, i don't know since i've never used it. Tenser's transformation would also be helpful, but the lack of spellcasting seems to be a problem since the chill tough and ghoul touch spells don't last long.
- a fighter/mage, to benefit from better thac0 and more importantly, from more APR at lvl7 and 13 (stacks with APRs from polymorphs). Here also, many solutions, either a multi, but low leveling up means for example that the lvl9 shapechange spell won't be used before hitting 6 million XP ! (berk). Or a dual classed, but then at lvl7 because I don't like dualling to late into BG2 and wait for a long time before gaining the levels back. And since those touch spells will be most useful at low level, it kind of defeats the point of this character.
I even thought of multiclassing from Mage into Fighter, since chill touch/ghoul touch don't scale with level up (but shocking grasp does), but it seems a waste and would just resemble a gimped dark moon monk.
- a thief/mage multi (just enough thief levels to get enough disarm traps / lockpicks), for utility and maybe some useful gear (except for some cheesiness involving off-hand speed weapons, I don't see which items would guarantee effectiveness of the build). But then again, the thac0 will be a real problem by midgame.
- a bard, blade comes into mind with the spins for extra damage or tankiness, which would allow a fast leveling, less spellcasting is not so important considering the way I plan to use my spells, and only means the lack of the Shapechange spell lategame. Although, here too, APR and thac0 might be a problem, although less than a plain mage/sorcerer.

I don't know if any of you have already made a melee arcane spellcaster (centered around either touch spells / weapons summoning / polymorphing or a mix of all), but I would love your inputs and advice.

Thanks in advance.

GreenWarlock

Thematically, I found this kind of run easier in BG2 with Wilson, Cernd, and Rasaad as natural allies. One of the biggest issues is reconciling a thief to this run. I went with a Cleric/Thief as my main, and deemed casting spells to produce temporary weapons (Shillelagh, Spiritual Hammer, and Flameblade) as permitted, as long I did not equip the weapon slot myself. The same principle allowed mages to use minute meteors.

You also get items that polymorph you into creatures, such as the wolf cloak in BGEE that may, or may not, help other NPCs participate that would otherwise struggle with the no-weapon rule.

monico

I am so used to make custom parties that I forgot that I have NPCs covering my needs already haha !

Good idea for Cernd & Rasaad, I'll rediscover the pleasure of having companions in BG2. And I can take Rasaad from BG1, replacing Cernd either by a custom Shapeshifter, or take a druid NPC limited to shapeshifts/shillelagh shenanigans.

And I can't believe I forgot about Wilson ! I loved him in my solo poverty-pacifist Totemic Druid run, where I set as restrictions that my naked Totemic Druid (he just had a hide armor and a club for the looks) should not damage any creature directly by spell or weapon, only buffs/debuffs and summons. Wilson just fit in for RP purposes. I still have a screenshot somewhere of Sarevok's death and my status page showing "most powerful ennemy vanquished : none" / "prefered weapon : none ". I unwillingly killed some small fries in BG2 at some point alas, so couldn't have the same screenshots after killing Irenicus (and never made it to the end of ToB, as I got bored again). Aaah, I loved that run though... but i'm going off topic here.

I agree with the lack of thief, although after so many runs, I know where the traps are, and an arcane caster can unlock chests (and yet again, not that important in that kind of runs), a thief, although still useful, is not that necessary.

But it could tip the scale in favor of a thief/mage multi or dual.

I was really willing to make a melee Dragon Disciple, and I've been hunting the forums to read about other players experiences, but I have not found much (except for @Grond0 runs with Biff, his solo no-reload melee sorcerer runs here : https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/48302/no-reload-melee-sorcerer-run ).

But I'm really worried that the touch spells would be unusable with a sorcerer. Off course, a slowed + blind ennemy would suffer a -8 AC penalty, and attacking from invisibility would also add another +4 thac0 on top of that, but that's a lot of rounds slinging spells before landing an actual hit, not even mentioning lowering the enemy's saves first with Greater Malison (and the occasional Doom) and hoping they don't have MR.

Grond0

Sounds like an interesting concept. When playing solo a sorcerer or mage can perform pretty well in melee. You've already referred to ways in which you can improve THAC0, but if you want to be really devastating just try melee in a web while wearing the ring of free action (and once you have polymorph self you can add the appropriate spider shape). I agree though that those tactics would be likely to become boring after a while if you are doing a more completionist run with a party.

Of the options you've listed it sounds like the blade would be most suited to your requirements for an arcane 'unarmed' melee specialist. Other characters you might want to consider in a support role wielding conjured weapons could include a shaman (with that lovely 19 strength if a half-orc) or a priest of Helm.

monico

Thx for the feedback @Grond0 .

My last 2 runs (one unfinished in LoB, which i find a bit tedious, hence this run) involved heavy use of shamans (I have found that 2 shamans have great synergy) so i will stay away from this class for now, and do something else.

Priest of Helm is more a "conjured weapon" specialist than a "unarmed" specialist, but I thought about it at first too, since the priest's buffs would be a welcome addition to further help reduce the melee arcanist's thac0.

The web spam is always a good idea, I've used it and loved it in the past, and i might in that case replace the Werewolf for an Avenger for extra webs and extra spider form (same access to conjured weapons than the Shapeshifter or Shaman also), keep the idea of a Sorcerer then and also use the spider spawn spell, along with spider shape from Polymorph self. The ring of free action would then preferably go to the monk (Rasaad or custom one).

As you stated though, this build would make less use of the "touch spells" than first intended.
Though I've read that if you put Ghoul touch / Chill touch in a lvl4 sequencer and use it after polymorphing into a spider, it overrides the spider's weapon. Problem is, at the end of the spell, you lose the Touch spell AND the base spider weapon and are sadly left with whatever you have in hand. I guess a simple morphing in human and back to spider is a viable solution (and lets you cast a few buffs inbetween fights).

....
ok, the more I think about it, the more I like it lol. I guess i'll roll a "test dummy" sorcerer and blade and see which one i like the most (obviously, both have pros and cons).

EDIT : dammit, some rat took my cheese. This doesn't work anymore, launching a sequencer automatically reverts you in human shape. Although you CAN shapeshift even after casting Tenser's Transformation (if you cast Polymorph Self beforehand obviously), but cannot launch sequencers under Tenser as well as any other mage spell.

Also, the spider form has been changed from what was stated in the guide linked in my first post : the spider form was supposed to get 5 APR and no poison (poison was in original game, removed somewhere along an update in EE), now spider has only 2 APR but gained back poison (with a save). /END OF EDIT