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Is it really that bad to insist that Keldorn stays in the party?

DhariusDharius Member Posts: 219
I used to think that this was a bad thing as you're keeping him from his family and he is a bit of a old codger. But, then again, you may really need a paladin (and there aren't any other choices) to protect countless innocents from Jon Irenicus, and (in TOB) the Five and perhaps the return of Bhaal.

So I'm not sure it's so bad after all. What do you think?

PS Similarly for Jan, Nalia and Mazzy - arguably they should be with their families too...but you don't hear so much about that. Anomen is probably better off without his though.

gorgonzolaAerakar

Comments

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    beware of spoilers...

    jan poses no problem as his family is perfectly able to take care of his beloved turnips. if you do his quest
    you find out that he has no more a love affair to attend, and in the end he will anyway return home and conquer the love of his beloved as the epilogue tells.

    living an adventure like the one at your side is perfectly suited to him.

    i suspect that very few of nalia's family is left
    and as the few is that horrible aunt i gues that taking her with you you do her a favor.


    mazzi is a warrior and an adventurer, if not with you she will probably lead a group of fighters/adventurers by herself, no difference.

    about keldorn i feel guilty every time, but in the end is his choice and the choice is done according to the way he is, he is born to be a hero and a pally, not a good husband, and this is not your own fault.
    his family problems are born way before you meet him and probably also if you prefer to leave him with the family there will be only a temporary relief for his pour wife.
    from the epilogue we know that he will be a pally up to the end of his life, killed in an epic battle and ascended to the side of torm.

    i hope only that you chose the way that leave his pour wife out of prison, she don't deserve to pay with the life the fact that he is an hero but a really bad husband.

    DhariusDJKajurusemiticgodAerakar
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,690
    Keldorn realizes his mistake in leaving his family all the time. He wishes to stay with them only offers to help you out of gratitude/duty. You are effectively ruining his second chance at life by taking him with you.

    ChroniclerDhariussmeagolheartAerakar
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    this is why also i feel guilty, but i suspect that even if he try he can not overcome his nature, more sooner than later some pally duty will draw him away from the family anyway. he helps you out of duty, but for a torm follower duty is everything. also the duty toward the family is there, but the one toward the order is probably stronger. more sooner than later some pally duty will draw him away from the family one anyway.

    or at least we can "RP" that as we want to have him in the party :D

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 688
    I'd rather keeper Mazzy into a cavalier and leave Keldorn for the zombies. >:)

  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 664
    edited September 28
    I feel guilty bringing Keldorn along but find an Inquisitor so useful that I learn to live with the guilt!

    Also I usually head canon that after spending a few months with me, he heads back to his wife and spends a lifetime being happy with her.

    And eventually dies heroically defending a mountain pass.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,780
    I hate playing the role of psychologist (actually I love to do so) but let's face the fact that there are *two* factors : What it says about you and what it says about Keldorn.

    When it comes to Charname, he/she could insist on having Keldorn in the party because he/she is needy, or really believes that an inquisitor can make a diference, because he/she knows that in the end its the paladin's choice and no one else's so you shouldnt feel guilty because you believe that ,or even because you really dont give a damn about him or his family so you manipulate keldorn into staying with you.

    When it comes to keldorn, lets be honest here: he hasnt known charname for long and , even if he did , even if it were Torm himself inviting him to the party ,it would still be Keldorn's choice and no one else's. That applies to any of us, our choices may be made based on several reasons, but its still our choice.

    To make it short, yes. It could be a selfish act to have keldorn stay with you, and it may lie on the player's conscience, but our Lord Firecam is no pawn .

    gorgonzolaAerakarBlackraven
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 509
    DJKajuru said:

    I hate playing the role of psychologist (actually I love to do so) but let's face the fact that there are *two* factors : What it says about you and what it says about Keldorn.

    When it comes to Charname, he/she could insist on having Keldorn in the party because he/she is needy, or really believes that an inquisitor can make a diference, because he/she knows that in the end its the paladin's choice and no one else's so you shouldnt feel guilty because you believe that ,or even because you really dont give a damn about him or his family so you manipulate keldorn into staying with you.

    When it comes to keldorn, lets be honest here: he hasnt known charname for long and , even if he did , even if it were Torm himself inviting him to the party ,it would still be Keldorn's choice and no one else's. That applies to any of us, our choices may be made based on several reasons, but its still our choice.

    To make it short, yes. It could be a selfish act to have keldorn stay with you, and it may lie on the player's conscience, but our Lord Firecam is no pawn .

    I mean, if it were all real then that would certainly be accurate, but I feel like the way we view these characters is fundamentally tinted by the fact that as the player, we are the only entity with any real agency in this universe.

    To a certain extent, Firecam is very much a pawn, and we the chessmaster. We can send him on an adventure or we can send him home to his family, but he doesn't truly have a say in the matter. Not the same way that we do.

    ThacoBellgorgonzolaAerakarDharius
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,123

    I don't think Keldorn would stay at home for more than a week, regardless of what charname does.

    The situation we are shown is not normal. He is based in Athkatla, yet his children hardly know him and he hasn't been home for weeks. And that's ongoing and has been the same for years.

    When you meet him in the sewers, he's practically under the bloody floor of his house yet when you turn up with him, it's as if he's been deployed overseas for months.

    Why hasn't he been walking for the five minutes it takes to go home at the end of the day?
    Why does he essentially live at the RH building?

    Take him or leave him, it's up to you. But I wouldn't feel bad about believing what you have seen and heard for yourself about his domestic arrangements.

    Plus it's so weird he asks charname, a 21yo virtual stranger, what to do about his wife playing away.

    gorgonzolaChroniclerAerakarBlackraven
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 509


    I don't think Keldorn would stay at home for more than a week, regardless of what charname does.

    The situation we are shown is not normal. He is based in Athkatla, yet his children hardly know him and he hasn't been home for weeks. And that's ongoing and has been the same for years.

    When you meet him in the sewers, he's practically under the bloody floor of his house yet when you turn up with him, it's as if he's been deployed overseas for months.

    Why hasn't he been walking for the five minutes it takes to go home at the end of the day?
    Why does he essentially live at the RH building?

    Take him or leave him, it's up to you. But I wouldn't feel bad about believing what you have seen and heard for yourself about his domestic arrangements.

    Plus it's so weird he asks charname, a 21yo virtual stranger, what to do about his wife playing away.

    Yeah, I think members of the Radiant Heart do live in some sort of dormitory. A paladin player character can get a room there through their stronghold. I'm told that it's a pretty simple living situation, eschewing vanity and the pleasures of the flesh, so he may feel that living there brings him closer to god than having a whole house to himself.

    Still, you make a good point, we've been understating how much it says about him that he doesn't seem to visit at all, for such extended periods of time, even while living so near to his family.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,690
    Its because he's oblivious to what he is doing to his family. As soon as its made clear the effect he has on them, all it takes is one talk and he retires from the order to be with his family. Someone who realizes the consequences of their actions like that, and already ha a vested interest in doing the right thing, isn't going to just drop his family again. He makes his choice and sticks with it.

    semiticgodAerakar
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,123
    ThacoBell said:

    Its because he's oblivious to what he is doing to his family. As soon as its made clear the effect he has on them, all it takes is one talk and he retires from the order to be with his family. Someone who realizes the consequences of their actions like that, and already ha a vested interest in doing the right thing, isn't going to just drop his family again. He makes his choice and sticks with it.


    Just why doesn't he want to go home?

    You know, want. Not some overblown nonsense about duty keeping him away.
    Like saying Hi to the children, fancying a quick shag with the missus, (got to have done it a couple of times...or have they.....are they his???...........is the RH simply a cover for the Athkatlan YMCA..............I think we should be told...............)

    gorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,690
    edited September 30
    Its not that he doesn't want to, he gave an oath to the order and fulfills his duty, he is just OBLIVIOUS to the pain he is causing his family. He thinks they are perfectly fine with it (He even mentions that he discussed this with his wife before they were married). I think its more telling that he is willing to immediately retire to spend more time with his family when its pointed out to him just how much his absence hurts them.

    Post edited by ThacoBell on
    semiticgodAerakargorgonzolaBlackraven
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 509
    ThacoBell said:

    Its because he's oblivious to what he is doing to his family. As soon as its made clear the effect he has on them, all it takes is one talk and he retires from the order to be with his family. Someone who realizes the consequences of their actions like that, and already ha a vested interest in doing the right thing, isn't going to just drop his family again. He makes his choice and sticks with it.

    Kind of seems like he'd have to be willfully obtuse not to realize that kids benefit from having a father whose, you know, around a little bit though.

    Like that doesn't exactly require an advanced understanding of the family unit or anything.

    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,690
    Workaholics often don't realize what they are doing to their families by being away. Its not obliviousness, its hyper focus.

    AerakarDJKajurusemiticgod
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 509
    Workaholics tend to come home and see their family at the end of the day, unless there's some financial situation that specifically requires them to work far away from home.

    Workaholics don't usually finish their shift and then check into a hotel just down the street from their family, not even thinking to visit for extended periods of time.

    UnderstandMouseMagicgorgonzola
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 509
    Minor point to bring into the discussion, but even if we conclude that his new life as a family man was doomed to failure from the get go, I'd still feel uncomfortable being the guy to demand he abandon them immediately in the pursuit of my quest.

    When that all falls apart I want to be able to say I had no part in it.

    ThacoBell
  • SingsSings Member Posts: 10
    What an interesting discussion about my favorite NPC! I play good-aligned PC's for the most part and I imagine that when they meet Keldorn, it's like: drowning person meets lifeboat. Think of your other party choices, they may be strong but all are pretty needy, even Jaheira, who has been your rock since BG1, has been shaken to her core. I have a hard time imagining my PC being unselfish or un-desperate enough to release him.

    And I agree that Keldorn has been oblivious to his family problems. But once they are pointed out, as much as he thinks he would like to retire to be with his wife, he still places his duty above any personal considerations. He knows the PC is a Bhaalspawn, one who is trying to walk the path of right, and he feels it is his duty to see that happen. He thinks his wife understands that his duty must come before his family. (I have my doubts. Hard to continue to support someone who is never there for you.)

    I imagine the Order is no better than the PC: you want to retire? Great--you totally deserve it--but we really need you to do X first...

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 509
    Sings said:

    What an interesting discussion about my favorite NPC! I play good-aligned PC's for the most part and I imagine that when they meet Keldorn, it's like: drowning person meets lifeboat. Think of your other party choices, they may be strong but all are pretty needy, even Jaheira, who has been your rock since BG1, has been shaken to her core. I have a hard time imagining my PC being unselfish or un-desperate enough to release him.

    And I agree that Keldorn has been oblivious to his family problems. But once they are pointed out, as much as he thinks he would like to retire to be with his wife, he still places his duty above any personal considerations. He knows the PC is a Bhaalspawn, one who is trying to walk the path of right, and he feels it is his duty to see that happen. He thinks his wife understands that his duty must come before his family. (I have my doubts. Hard to continue to support someone who is never there for you.)

    I imagine the Order is no better than the PC: you want to retire? Great--you totally deserve it--but we really need you to do X first...

    I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. Minsc, Mazzy, Nalia, Aerie, there are plenty of good aligned companions to choose from.

    ThacoBell
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 126
    No, his wife is evil for demanding that he stay at home, denying him the chance to go on exciting adventures and be able to protect the community. >:)

    Joking aside, tough choices like these do make the game more interesting. Rather than discuss what is "objectively" good or bad, I rather see this as a good opportunity to define your character. What does 'charname' think is right or wrong in this case? It could go either way.

    gorgonzola
  • SingsSings Member Posts: 10
    I guess I see Charname looking for a responsible and mature adult, maybe even a parental figure of sorts. Her dad was killed in BG1. She had Khalid and Jaheira and now Khalid is dead and Jaheira is in a state of quiet despair. There are plenty of good aligned NPC's but Keldorn is the first you meet that seems (on the surface at least) to have his act together. He is someone who can give guidance, not constantly in need of it like, say, Anomen or Aerie. Mazzy would be a good role model too but she's hard to get to in the early game.

    ChroniclerCabal82
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,731
    edited September 30
    I could see Keldorn and Mazzy being the Khalid and Jaheira of BG2.

    Kind of seems like he'd have to be willfully obtuse not to realize that kids benefit from having a father whose, you know, around a little bit though.

    I mean. I'm a big fan of Paladins, but that is basically a Paladin class feature ;)

    ChroniclerBelgarathMTH
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    edited September 30
    ThacoBell said:

    Its not that he doesn't want to, he gave an oath to the order and fulfills his duty, he is just OBLIVIOUS to the pain he is causing his family. He thinks they are perfectly fine with it (He even mentions that he discussed this with his wife before they were married). I think its more telling that he is willing to immediately retire to spend more time with his family when its pointed out to him just how much his absence hurts them.

    i am not convinced.
    first of all we know that he is a follower of torn, so duty is everything for him, probably he must weight the duty towards the RH against the one towards the family. feelings, his own ones or other people ones, come after and must not interfere with duties.

    second he is quite rigid in his way of thinking, the episode with viky if both are in the party shows us this side of his way of thinking: drow=evil, evil=killkillkill. even if she is an outcast in a hostile environment, that ask you help, proves you to be trusty and loyal, even if in the end she can change her alignment and point of view about life.

    3rd he is not so sensible about his family and self centered, the fact that he wants to send her wife in prison cause she was not up to her duty instead of humbly asking her to forgive him for how bad he was as husband shows it. your influence can, if you choose, change him and make him willing to change his attitude towards the family, but we have no clue of how this changing his mind is only temporary, if it would really have been a real change he would not ask you about it, he would have know by himself where is his place. he would have told you:"sorry charname now i have to go, my real duty is my family" and live. and he would certainly not agreed to follow you with just a single day with the family.

    don't get me wrong, i like keldorn and to read his epilogue the first time gave much more emotion than it should happen for a pixel toon in a pc game. he is great, he is a real hero, but his doom is that he is so single minded. torn, the RH and the pally duty is almost everything for him, he can for sometime realize that thee is also other in the life and that other can be as important, but that is his nature.

    and this is the wonderful thing, because in the game people can change, charname and 2 npc can change alignment, and anomen can change his attitude towards life. so why keldorn should not be able to change?
    @ThacoBell chose to RP that he does, @UnderstandMouseMagic, i and others RP that he does not. our decision is not about if to keep him with us or let him go, is much deeper. our decision is about how his inner nature is. and according with our RP decision we make choices.

    if we RP that he really changed we free him from his duty, and he will never more available (in soa) for us.

    if we decide that there is not a permanent deep change in his attitude towards life and priority of duties we can still have him with us.
    in the case the fact that he accept to follow us instead of telling:"no thanx, now i realized that my place is elsewhere" is a clue that he would anyway very soon prioritize again his pally duties towards his family ones.

    the game reacts perfectly to our decision about to RP a keldorn's inner nature permanent change or only a superficial temporarily one



    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,690
    @gorgonzola I'm not convinced.
    "first of all we know that he is a follower of torn, so duty is everything for him, probably he must weight the duty towards the RH against the one towards the family. feelings, his own ones or other people ones, come after and must not interfere with duties. "

    But raising a fmaily is also a duty. So matter what, Keldorn is abandoning a duty. But look a tit this way. Keldorn is well past retirement age, the order does not press him into service. He can legitimately retire after a lifetime of duty to Tyr, and take up a new duty to his family. There is zero chanve Tyr would disapprove of this.

    "second he is quite rigid in his way of thinking, the episode with viky if both are in the party shows us this side of his way of thinking: drow=evil, evil=killkillkill. even if she is an outcast in a hostile environment, that ask you help, proves you to be trusty and loyal, even if in the end she can change her alignment and point of view about life."

    Not quite true. He is hostile to Viconia, but this seems limited to the Drow. He gets along really well with Korgan. He is certainly pragmatic enough to not go murder crazy based solely on alignment.

    "3rd he is not so sensible about his family and self centered, the fact that he wants to send her wife in prison cause she was not up to her duty instead of humbly asking her to forgive him for how bad he was as husband shows it."

    His whole life, he has been one of those paladins that holds to "law" slightly more than "good". You see this exemplified when his reaction is to follow the law and report his wife, condemning her to prison. But its not just a jump in and "this is how it has to be." Look at his dialogue, he is tormented by this. He looks to anyone nearby, asking for an alternative. He knows this isn't right, and even though his first instinct is to lawfully imprison her, his sense of good is holding that in check. Its doesn't even matter that charname is the one to suggest another resolution, Keldorn was despereately looking for an alternative, I bet even if Viconia had made the suggestion, he would have gone along with it.

    He will not abandon his family a second time, and destroying it to follow the letter of the law is not "good". Reconciling him with his family, only to take him away immediately is an act of evil.

    gorgonzolaDharius
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 219
    @Chronicler and @borntodie Yes, this is an interesting conversation, and from your posts I'm beginning to agree that whatever we choose for Keldorn becomes the right decision for us, in a sense, similarly to what happens with Anomen along the way perhaps. What I mean is, we make the decision for him and try to make the best of it, regardless of the moral implications and consequences.

    We only assume that Keldorn's family will be happier if he stays at home, and we assume that Keldorn will stay with the party if we ask him to (if our rep falls too low, if he fights with Viconia/Edwin or others, or if he dies by some misfortune, then this won't happen) until the end, but neither of these outcomes are guaranteed.

    So I'm beginning to think that this is a dilemma situation, like whether to leave Imoen in Spellhold once we find her, like many others in the game, that we interpret how we want at the time. Maybe :)

    gorgonzola
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,123

    To Lucasta, Going to the Wars

    Tell me not (Sweet) I am unkind,
    That from the nunnery
    Of thy chaste breast and quiet mind
    To war and arms I fly.

    True, a new mistress now I chase,
    The first foe in the field;
    And with a stronger faith embrace
    A sword, a horse, a shield.

    Yet this inconstancy is such
    As you too shall adore;
    I could not love thee (Dear) so much,
    Lov’d I not Honour more.

    Richard Lovelace.

    This has always been one of my favourite poems and cuts to the heart of what the Keldorn quest is about.

    But the problem with the quest in game, for me, is that I'm far too literal.
    When I see Keldorn hanging around in Athkatla, well he's not gone to war.

    Simply, his excuse doesn't wash.

    Had they placed him away, at war, it would change my perspective somewhat.

    But what we are shown, well I just don't see him settling down with the family because he hasn't had an excuse why he couldn't have combined the two previously, or at least from when we meet him.

    It's a very good quest and as @Dharius and @gorgonzola have pointed out, it's not straightforward.

    I think the parrellel of Keldorn is not with some historic Knight/Paladin, but rather a high flying company exec. who sacrifices family for business then wonders why it's all gone wrong.
    But he always had a choice, it was in his control. The RH is not the standing army.

    There's something nasty with the way he reacts to the infidelity, the immediate denial that his wife has a right to a life of her own which he has previously chosen to ignore.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    i tell you the truth, as jan explained it to me.
    but don't open the spoiler if you don't like horrible practical jokes
    why keldorn before we net him rarely went home to do his "duty" toward his wife, using his "holy avenger"?
    and when we went to the RH building where he was? in that room with that young charming esquire. was with the esquire that he was doing his "duty"...
    the whole thing is really so simple, love is blind, camaraderie make people close and what once was a pleasant "duty" towards his wife had sadly become an far from pleasant duty.
    no other reason can explain why he never pay visit to his own home and family, that is surely not so distant from the temple district.


    joke aside there is a good reason for me to take him with me, in a whole life of fighting he was able to reach a really low level, in few weeks with me he reaches level cap.
    oooops, also this is a joke, sorry :D

    UnderstandMouseMagic
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