Would having two Monks or two Wild Mages in my party gimp my playthrough?

Mitchell

Hi all.

As I'm sure most of you are, I'm anticipating the release of BG:EE, and I'm trying to decide what class I want to play. I've played through BG1 to the end once before, as a Fighter/Mage/Thief, which I really enjoyed. I've also played a Shapeshifter and a Kensai (planned to dualclass it to a thief), but I never finished the game on those characters for whatever reason. For this playthrough, I want to try something a little different, and the Monk and Wild Mage classes both look like a lot of fun. However, I plan on taking both Neera and Rasaad (and Dorn as well, but I'll be playing a good character, so I may change my mind about him).

So what I'm wondering is if I have two Monks or two Wild Mages in the party, would I suffer any particular disadvantage in BG1 and later in BG2? Obviously for the other two slots I'll need a thief and a cleric (I definitely want Viconia. Not sure about the thief, but I'll probably take Imoen for story reasons).

And if you have any suggestions for any other class that you have found particularly fun, please share!

Lemernis

Well, both are problematic in certain respects.

The Wild Mage kit will have periodic wild surges when spellcasting (5% of the time) which rarely turn out actually better than the spell one intended. By the same token something really bad happening from the surge has about a 2% chance. So if you have two mages casting as such it does gimp the party, yes. I'm hoping the funnest part about Neera will be that she comments on her wild surges. But having two of these types of casters might not be so fun, really.

A lot of players have voiced concern about the Monk class in BG1. This is a martial arts fighter--and therefore presumably a meleer--that can't wear armor, and consequently is extremely vulnerable to weapons of all kinds. I once tried playing one in a BGT game, and it was evident right away how badly hurt a character like this was going to routinely get--even to the point of constantly having to Res him. So I aborted the game even before I completed the Nashkel mines.

There's been speculation that Rasaad will be equipped with a special item, or possibly have a special ability, that will in some way mitigate the damage he's at risk to incur. You can read the manual on Monks for more detail on how they figure to hold up to enemy weapons' attacks.

As for playing the PC as a Monk, perhaps there will be a number of items available in EE that make this class playable in BG1.

If you intend to take both Neera and Rassad into your party, I would not recommend choosing either a Wild Mage or Monk for your PC. Unless you are a veteran player looking for a hearty challenge.

Xaenor

I'm pretty sure that with a certain amount of dedication the game is beatable with any setup. And while such a party would probably be problematic at first, the important thing is whether you personally will have fun with it. If so, go for it.

Space_hamster

I usually play a spellcast heavy party, with 4 members focusing on spell casting. Fun if you like magic instead of melee.

Zanian

It would gimp it, sure, but the fact is the game really isn't all that difficult, unless you set it to hardest difficulty settings, at which point any team setup is still doable. I say roll whatever you want to play as the most. From a frustration point of view, I'd say the monk. At least with one of those you can prepare for what's to come.

Lemernis

Xaenor is right, of course. But the question is how comfortable are you with the difficulty you'll be taking on, and how much fun will that actually be for you.

Drakelore

In BGManual2.pdf a certin item is mentioned on page 134:
Gauntlets of Dexterity: ―The Brawling Hands‖
This pair of gauntlets was likely developed in Kara-Tur to aid masters of the martial arts. Legends speak of such masters from the Far East bringing these items with them on their journeys, although details remain sketchy.

Also it is said that a Monk cannot wear any armour the same goes for a mage. But mages can wear robes and Bracers of Defence. I believe that the same goes for a Monk.

Pantalion

Wild Mages are explicitly superior to a non-specialist mage; arguably better than most specialist mages. No opposition school, but they still have an additional Spell per level per day, and they can cast spells earlier than any other mage could hope to via Nahal's.

Finally, they are worse ~2% of the time, better ~5% of the time, this means, net, that even wild surges make them overall better than any other mage.

So no, no gimping from two wild mages any more than the inherent gimping from fielding two mages in general, in fact, it works out much, much better overall, so long as you accept the occasional backfire.

Monks.... Yeah, pretty much gimp'd.

Tie_Fighter

Yeah, monks seem pretty bad...but I mean, if you have two good fighters in your party, that is mostly good enough to get you through the game. The annoying thing will be the crappy charactres dying all the time. I think monks will be like low level wizards, except they can't use wands.

reedmilfam

Monks are not bad at all. They require care and feeding, but no more than a low level mage (actually less than a low level mage). I wouldn't do two of them, though - at least not early. The reason is that they're vulnerable, yet they are melee fighters. Bad combo early on, but it will pay off later.

I haven't checked if you can, so this might not be possible, but a ½-orc monk would be pretty strong. That high CON with full dex and WIS available would definitely help. Don't give up on this one! It is do-able.

But two monks... I'd really think twice about that. To survive, use one cleric to buff one, a mage or second cleric to buff the other. Lots of care and feeding, but it is possible.

Lemernis

Pantalion said:

Wild Mages are explicitly superior to a non-specialist mage; arguably better than most specialist mages. No opposition school, but they still have an additional Spell per level per day, and they can cast spells earlier than any other mage could hope to via Nahal's.

Finally, they are worse ~2% of the time, better ~5% of the time, this means, net, that even wild surges make them overall better than any other mage.

So no, no gimping from two wild mages any more than the inherent gimping from fielding two mages in general, in fact, it works out much, much better overall, so long as you accept the occasional backfire.

Monks.... Yeah, pretty much gimp'd.

Yeah, I would concur with a lot of this FWIW. I mean, mainly the point that only once in 20 spells (on average) does the desired spell not fire is not a terrible thing in exchange for an additional spell slot. I'm not quite prepared to say this is better than a generalist mage, though... maybe on par with...

Nahal's Dweomer is outright dicey early on (well, literally). But the bonus from Chaos Shield and spellcaster level stack to make it more reliable as the Wild Mage levels up. It's very cool to be able to take the gamble with this spell. I think I'll probably have Neera use it a lot.

Dee

It's the only spell I have her prepare in the Beta. Makes for some very interesting (albeit, occasionally, very short) encounters.

Pantalion

@Lemernis - On par with is a strong term, you're comparing an extra spell slot with the supposed tradeoff of a 1-in-20 chance of something happening which has a 66% chance or so of being equal or better to the original spell. That's a 1-in-60 chance, give or take, of a spell not firing; with 16 spells a day by level 8, that's one spell every four game days "lost" (with potential penalties), in exchange for ~1 spells over the same amount of time working *better*, and sixteen extra spells over the full amount of time.

For Nahal's, yeah, it's risky, but really, you can cast Cloudkill as a level 1 spell. In BG1. At level 8. It's not a spell to use recklessly to replicate Magic Missile or something, but really, how can you beat that?

Lemernis

Pantalion said:

@Lemernis - On par with is a strong term, you're comparing an extra spell slot with the supposed tradeoff of a 1-in-20 chance of something happening which has a 66% chance or so of being equal or better to the original spell. That's a 1-in-60 chance, give or take, of a spell not firing; with 16 spells a day by level 8, that's one spell every four game days "lost" (with potential penalties), in exchange for ~1 spells over the same amount of time working *better*, and sixteen extra spells over the full amount of time.

For Nahal's, yeah, it's risky, but really, you can cast Cloudkill as a level 1 spell. In BG1. At level 8. It's not a spell to use recklessly to replicate Magic Missile or something, but really, how can you beat that?

Well, a 1 in 20 chance of the desired spell not firing is the major downside that I see. Because that spell I'm casting at that moment may be very important to the outcome of the battle, or help turn the tide, etc. Any spell is for me usually part of a well coordinated attack. Even many of the beneficial outcomes to a surge may not truly be helpful for the battle at hand (eg, a garnet in my pocket). You're almost never going to see a Cowkill, lol (totally awesome though that is). So, again, for me it is simply the 5% chance that I won't get the spell I intend to cast that is the liability. And 5% is often enough to be felt.

The odds of a level 1-4 Wild Mage actually succeeding in casting Cloudkill via Nahal''s Reckless Dweomer are quite low, I would think. Where Nahal's becomes cool, it seems to me, is at higher levels, at which the Wild Mage can access some neat higher-level-than-caster spells that actually have a pretty good chance of getting shaped.

Lemernis

@Pantalion Bear in mind I haven't played the game for nearly five years, so if you're played recently you are more likely to have the better answer here than me!

Pantalion

I'm sure we'll all be remedying that issue imminently Sirrah. Three hours to go.

Mitchell

Thanks for all of your comments. I think I've decided to choose a different class this time around. While I don't mind a challenge, I'd rather have an easier time while enjoying all the new content, and then maybe challenge myself next time. At this point, I'm leaning towards a multiclass Illusionist/Thief Gnome...

Corvino

Probably a good idea, Mitchell. Monks can be great in BG2, but require a lot of babysitting at BG1 levels.

Once they hit 14 they're killing machines, but the road to get there is long, frustrating, and not finished in BG1.