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Discussion concerning single class characters vs. dual/multi-class characters....

I wanted to create a thread on this forum about people's opinions on single classed characters vs. dual/multi-class characters in Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition. What is everyone's opinion on this? Which kind of character do you like to play in NN:EE - single classed or multi-classed, and why?

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Comments

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 459
    I'll assume you're talking about levels 1-20 without prestige classes.

    For sorcerers and wizards, I stay singleclassed for the highest possible caster level, though you could consider a level of paladin (for sorcerers) or rogue (for wizards).

    For clerics and druids, I mostly stay singleclassed for the highest possible caster level, but sometimes take a single level of monk (for the AC bonus). If going through HotU, I'll typically also grab a single ranger level, not because I care that much about dual-wielding but because I can then load up an off-hand weapon with a variety of protective buffs.

    With other classes you typically gain more by mixing-and-matching than you do sticking with a single class. This is especially true for bards, who I almost always multiclass with fighter because their spell list is so underwhelming at high levels.

  • SuperFunHappySuperFunHappy Member Posts: 35
    You can get away with playing pure class on classes that are better off multi-classing. Even with the difficulty at max the game really isn't that hard. Want to play a pure Paladin? You can beat the game with one. Pure Barbarian? Same thing and so on. That is my opinion.

  • Some pure classes CAN be better depending on the build.

    Some multiclasses CAN be better then pure classes IF the use one of about 7 to 17 variant, SYNERGISTICAL multiclass combos out of the about 30 to 70 multiclass combos possible and as long as use one of the about4 to 7 variant synergistical feat, race, skills, etc, combos out of the about 20 to 60 feat, race, combos, for each of the about 7 to 17 synergistical multiclass combos.

    Now I am not saying have to or should do it only 1 way. But some ways are more OPTIMIZED then other ways.

    Examples.

    A level 10 MELEE fighter/10 Wizard, while not bad, is not as good as:

    Bard/rogue

    Ranger/rogue

    Wizard/rogue

    Barbarian/Rogue

    Monk/Rogue

    Barbarian/Ranger

    Monk/Wizard

    Monk/Cleric

    Fighter/Cleric

    Those as long as you use one the about 4 to 8 race, feat, skill packages, combos, paths, are USUALLY more OPTIMIZED, then most other multiclass combos, and almost all pureclasses.

    More Optimized multiclassing is not easy. Its hard. Needs to be done a limited number of ways. With the right SYNERGY.

    SYNERGY almost always means the most, most important in multiclassing.

    What I mean by Synergy is that the game mechanic, numbers, bonuses, concepts, etc, need to synergize, stack,etc.

    If that does not happen, the multiclass will, would not work well, watered down, be behind pureclasses

    But if choose the right multiclass combos, and build them one of the right synergistical ways, then the Base attack Bonuses, Saving Throws, AC, Damage, feats, skills, abilities, will, would equal or better the Pure Class.

    And there are some multiclass combos that are better then almost all other multi classes, pureclasses:

    My Favorite:

    Halfling

    Monk/Wizard/Rogue/Shadowdancer(prestige class. Can have 3 classes + 1 prestige class.

    Monk 5, Wizard 5, Rogue 4, Shadowdancer Prestige Class 6

    Attributes:

    Starting:

    Str 10

    Dex 18

    Con 10

    Int 12

    Wis 16

    Cha 8

    Feat path

    Dodge Mobility Weapon Finesse Expertise Cleave(Monk) Improved Parry, combat casting, improved cleave, improved critical, combat reflexes, dual wield, whirlwind attack, circle kick, improved initiative.

    Skills Hide 10+, Move Silently 10+ Tumble 7,8+ Parry(as high as can get it) about 17 ranks+ with Dex bonus, improved parry, skill focus(maybe), your looking at about D20 + 39+ at higher levels). Heal 5+, Concentration 13+, open lock 9+, Disarm Traps 13+, listen 8+, Spot 6+, Search 10+, Lore 9+, Discipline 10+

    Starting AC is 10 +4(Dex Bonus)+3(Wis bonus) +1( small), +1(dodge) + 1(shield) = 20

    By 20 level, 67 armor class if max dex/ac thru stat/ac pumping, thru gear/items/spells/buffs,etc.

    And if get past AC can parry, counterattack

    Most to almost all the feats, skills, save throws, BAB, etc stack, synergize, complement each other

    This build is one of the most powerfull builds in the game.

    There might be some deferred power stretches, and a couple, few, some, minor weaknesses, that can be mitigated, overcome.

    But I would choose that over any Pureclass, Multi Class in the game.

    But be that as it probably is.

    If make a mistake on that multi class combo, depending on how bad the mistake, and your toast. And it can be easy for newer players to make a mistake with that build, so not recommended for new players.

    But that example illustrates that multiclasses CAN be better then pureclasses, if do it right.

    Otherwise Pureclasses can, probably are better, and or very easy, minor multiclasses, then multiclassing in general, especially for newer players

    Hope that helps

  • Prince_RaymondPrince_Raymond Member Posts: 173
    @Asturonethoriusaline Problem: Your Monk 5, Wizard 5, Rogue 4, Shadowdancer Prestige Class 6 build is currently not possible, because NWN:EE is hardcoded to limit a character having 3 classes including prestige classes. Thank you for reading, and happy gaming (and holidays) to all.

    DJKajuruShadooow
  • Shia_LuckShia_Luck Member Posts: 25
    Multiclass.

    The choices you make to emphasise an aspect of your character (whether this be for RP or powergaming (unless you are RPing a single class character ofc ! Can't catch me that way! *cheeky grin*) are often only possible through multiclassing.

    In another sense, epic caster levels for spell resitance excluded , the benefits of staying true to a class reduce with more levels when viewed in relation to the benefits of a dip into another class. E.G. If you aren't going for Dev Crit then WM runs out of uselfulness about lvl16 or 19 cos the bonus feats are not very good after that. One shadopwdancer level is a pure diamond mine to any sneak. Going past 5 SD needs a seriously extreme reason. Caster 24 makes your buffs undispellable and 26 is usually the next bonus feat so why go beyond that (except for SR).

    But I suppose you are talking base classes mostly (well, obviously, actually! *grin* Excuse me I am tired tonight.) What does a lvl40 fighter spend all those feats on? Paladins, bards rangers etc .. once you have the spells you need a quite focused/specialised build (a Smiter, say, Bard26~ish etc) to be worth taking more levels. Bard 40 for example, makes no sense to me at all. It's impossible to fulfill the perform requirements for your song without major items.

    I guess there are some characters that make sense going pure to lvl40.. a monk taking sapell resistance feats and pushing wis becomes basically immune and makes for very easy RP, but tbh, I could make the same RP work by multiclassing and make a much more interesting (to my mind) character.

    I probably sound like something of a powergamer but it is the synergy aspect that appeals mostly. (still my fave character is my 'me' character which tries to make a 'me' within the nwn rules and omg it breaks so many powergaming rules... I am not perfect after all, *grin* )


    @Asturonethoriusaline Check out the epic character build guild https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwnecbguild/

    Have fun :)

    DJKajuru
  • ProlericProleric Member Posts: 433
    Leaning towards simplicity, my personal preference is to single-class. I always felt that 3rd Edition was over-complicated. it can spoil immersion to suddenly acquire a second profession without explanation!

    In the OC and most custom modules, this approach works. There are a few exceptions, like ADWR, where the author pretty much assumes you will multiclass to survive, but for the most part it's a matter of taste, depending on whether roleplay or power gaming rock your boat most.

  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 378
    edited December 2018
    @Asturonethoriusaline Assuming you could take 4 classes (which you can't in NWN), doesn't the BAB end up being 13? And you list dual wield as a feat (by which I assume you mean two-weapon fighting since dual-wield is ranger only) which implies you plan to use two weapons, but then you also include a shield in your AC. You also have expertise which means your AB will be jacked even further when you use it. And isn't parry kinda bad in NWN?

    Also, what's the point of the wizard levels? Wouldn't just going monk8/rogue8/shadowdancer4 be more optimal? I mean rogue's UMD will let you use any spell scrolls for buffing and I can't imagine that level 1-3 wizard spells cast at such a low caster level would be worth the investment.

    I also think it's unlikely to get +12 to both dex and wisdom and have +5 or better armor, weapon, shield, and +5 deflection, natural, and dodge ac bonuses from gear all by level 20. I mean maybe in a home made module, but I can't think of it being doable in the included modules or most persistent worlds. I mean, just about any build can be OP if you throw powerful enough gear at it.

    To me the "best" builds are those that are as well rounded and self reliant as possible. By which I mean don't rely on crazy levels of gear to be great. Its why cleric builds can be so OP, they might be buff whores but they apply all those buffs as part of their class. Even in non-magical armor, a cleric can be quite formidable because of their buffs

    I have a Cleric/Rogue/Monk zen archer build that, at level 20, with nothing but a plain normal longbow, a robe, and no other gear or consumables has (when buffed):
    +38/+33/+28 attacks, 41 AC and her saves are fort: 21, reflex: 22, will: 24.

    At 40, again with nothing but a normal longbow and a robe, she's got (when buffed):
    +56/+51/+46 attacks, 55 AC and her saves are fort: 35, reflex: 32, will: 40

    She becomes totally insane with high end gear at 20 never mind at 40. That's what I consider one of the "best" builds.

  • The point of my build is that it does 2 things well.

    1. AC. And most of that AC is from class abilities, feats, attributes. Yes magical gear augments, is a good portion of that AC at higher levels.

    The AC is at about 19, 20, 21 to start. About 26,27, 28 at about levels 5,6,7. AC is at 57 to 67 at levels 17 to 20. Yes it is possible, probable. I played that build up to level 17 to 20 in OC. It was at about, at least 57 to 67.

    If play some other class, non monk build, etc, with only good gear, AC will be 14 to 16 to start. 18 to 22 by levels 5 to 7. 33 to 43 by levels 17 to 20.

    The wizard levels, plus UMD, make for some great buffs to AC that is part of how, combined with abilities, feats, gear, etc, that get up to 57+ at 17 to 20.

    So have a rediculous high AC, so why, what point?

    The point is your a agro, pincushin. While enemy is trying in vain to hit you, your henchman, or yourself EVENTUALLY finish the enemy off.

    And even if by your 57 AC, you roll D20 plus + your MODIFIED attack bonus, usually 17 to 23+, + your Parry Skill, usually about 17 to 27 for 10 out of D20+ 20 Attack+ 22 parry skill = 52, which is often not only good enough to parry a attack that got thru armor class, but to sometimes counter attack.

    When I played this build it was extremely rarely hit, and usually successfully parried hits.

    Now to make the AC, Parry build work, you had to full Monty, max it. If dont then can be bad.

    Now the price for the build is giving up:

    A. BAB. Which is only at about 12,13, 14. But that is overcome by Weapon Finesse, high Dexterity, which also plays into AC, Skills, Parrying. That is why can get about a D20 +20+ attack thru BAB combined with Dex Bonus, combined with enhanced weapon gear

    B. Lower HP. That is made up by high AC, Parry

    C. Does less damage. That is made up by high number of attacks per round, sneak attacks, and henchman, and HIPS, Summoned Shadow that is hard for enemy to get rid of.

    D. Weaker to Hordes, or a rediculously high AC enemy, that has both rediculous high AC, high attack, like the dragons(while I beat those in the OC, and were easy enough, took me freaking FOREVER time of fighting, and me and dragon not being able to hit each other very often.

  • As for why I put various feats, shield, 2 weapon fighting, etc, in, that seems to contradict stuff:

    1. Giving options, alternate paths to the build.

    2. Shield is for lower levels, if want a higher AC near beginning, and if want to waste a feat on shield proficiency

  • Also when I said that got to 53 to 57+ to 65 to 67 AC playing OC, it was with 3 classes, Monk/Wizard, Rogue.

    Close enough to the Monk/Wizard/Rog/Shadowdancer build that played in NVWN 2 up to 53 to 67 AC.

    Which said build absolutly destroyed, made NVWN 2 SO EASY

  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 378
    edited December 2018
    @Asturonethoriusaline you still haven't explained how you're able to take 4 classes in NWN. Unless you're confusing NWN:EE with NWN 2? Or maybe PnP D&D? NWN:EE only allows 3 classes total, not 3 classes + a prestige class. So your build isn't even possible in NWN:EE

    I also don't see how you can take feats like Improved Parry and Expertise with a 12 intelligence when those feats require an intelligence of 13+. The Combat Reflexes feat also doesn't exist in either NWN:EE or NWN2 and I dont think any of the classes in your build can even equip shields... I don't know how you came up with this build it most definitely wasn't in NWN:EE.

  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 378
    @Shia_Luck Bard Song caps out at level 30 Bard, though as you mentioned the perform requirements are ridiculous. The "practical" Bard Song limit is at lvl 25 of bard where the requirement is 75 perform. With maxed perform (43), Skill Focus (3), Artists (2), and Epic Skill Focus (10), that gives you a perform skill of 58 without any perform gear or any charisma bonuses. Let's say you never go higher than a 16 base charisma but you do get +12 charisma from gear so that would make your perform 67. Getting +8 perform from gear isn't too much of an ask I would say. At least to meet the 75 threshold that moves you to the +6 AC bonus.

    The main reasons to go beyond level 25 Bard include, bonus feats, casting level, and/or if the module or PW you play on has enough high end +perform items to hit 100 perform.

    I have a dex based bard build for a level 40 module that's a simple Human Bard 38/Shadow Dancer 2 with the SD levels taken at 21 and 22 respectively (HIPS and Uncanny Dodge are winners). Those bonus feats from epic bard levels are valuable because bards get both great dex and great cha feats as bonus feats which allowed my bard to get to Great Dexterity X as well as a number of other epic feats.

    His perform is only in the 50's though but the song bonuses are still decent and his AB and AC are fairly impressive for such simple build and even moreso when you factor in Curse Song's debuffs. His high casting level also lets his extended spell buffs last a very long time so he doesn't have to rest often.

    So as you can see there's legit reasons beyond just Bard Song to take a Bard fairly high.

  • Nic_Mercy said:

    @Asturonethoriusaline you still haven't explained how you're able to take 4 classes in NWN. Unless you're confusing NWN:EE with NWN 2? Or maybe PnP D&D? NWN:EE only allows 3 classes total, not 3 classes + a prestige class. So your build isn't even possible in NWN:EE

    I also don't see how you can take feats like Improved Parry and Expertise with a 12 intelligence when those feats require an intelligence of 13+. The Combat Reflexes feat also doesn't exist in either NWN:EE or NWN2 and I dont think any of the classes in your build can even equip shields... I don't know how you came up with this build it most definitely wasn't in NWN:EE.

    I know my post was long and that might have caused you to miss some things

    But I did say that the Monk/Wizard/Rogue Shadowdancer, was on NVWN 2.

    And that a CLOSE, SIMILAR, ALMOST SAME:

    Monk/Wizard/Assassin, or Monk/Wizard/Rogue,

    Was on NVWN 1, ONE.

    The 12 int was a STARTING Stat.

    I did say starting Stats were Str 10, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8.

    Or maybe you dont know that can raise stats thru either 1 every 4th level, or thru spells, Item stat enhancement.

    Plenty easy enough to raise a 12 int to a 13, so that can get inproved parry, Expertise.

    And Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Mobility, Improved Parry, Cleave(Monk feat for free), Expertise, knockdown, improved knockdown(monk free feats), either 2 weapon feat(Kama's), and or whirlwind attack, and or improved critical(Kama), are the feats I took for the OC, SOTU, HOTU, in NVWN 1.

    And No I am not confusing NVWN 1, and NVWN 2, with each other

    And I am not confusing the game with PNP.

    Mostly because in PNP, your more likely to have about a 49 to 53 to 55 AC. So the game AC higher then PNP, if follow both the game rules, and PNP rules.

    As for Combat Reflexes. That was a mistake. I have always used that feat in my monk builds, and forgot that it wasnt available in the NVWN game.

    The point is, besides either not reading, not understanding, or my not well enough for you, and not nickling, and diming the build, post,

    The point is that the point of the build is that you use EXTREMELY HIGH AC, WEAPON FINESSED, HIGH DEX BONUSED SEMI HIGH +20+ ATTACK, EXTREMELY HIGH PARRYING, LOTS OF ATTACKS PER ROUND, ETC, THRU ATTRIBUTE STATS, CLASS ABILITIES, FEATS, SKILLS, GEAR, ETC, TO ACT AS ALMOST UNHITTABLE TARGET, WHILE HENCHMAN, AND YOURSELF, EVENTUALLY, EVENTUALLY, EVEN IF AFTER FOREVER AT TIMES AGAINST THINGS LIKE DRAGONS, WIN.

    And that is what my build did, in making it easy to beat Morag(OLD ANCIENT FIRST ONE)(SPOILER),(If I remember name right)in the OC of NVWN 1.

  • Multi Class Question. In another thread, somebody suggested building a Monk/Bard.

    Is that allowable? I thought that Monk/Bard was impossible because I think, thought I remember the game rules saying Monk/Bard is not allowed

    But if I am wrong, and if able to do a Monk/Bard.

    Then I will do a Monk/Bard/Assassin, or a Monk/Bard/Rogue

    But will, would be hard to do because instead of Str 10, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8 to START.

    I would have to go with Str 9, or 10, Dex 16, 17, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14,15,16, Cha 12, in order to fit the character creation point buy.

    But if can, could make it work, it would add buff songs, buff spells, healing/arcane spells, and better BAB then Wizard.

    But may might probably be moot as might not be allowed by rules.

    Also skill point allotment would be tough to split between Hide Move Silently, Listen, Tumble, Disable, Open Lock, Parry, Discipline, Perform.

    But if allowed, done, can, could figure out how to do it, would be a great, awesome build

    So is Monk/Bard multiclass Allowed?

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 459
    In NWN as well as the pencil-and-paper version of D&D, it is allowed as long as you first change your alignment to something that lets you take the new class.

  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 378
    edited December 2018
    @Asturonethoriusaline I read your post thoroughly. At no point in your original post did you mention NWN2. You can go back and read it yourself to see that you didn't mention NWN2, not once. I saved a copy of the post in notepad just so I could do a thorough search and make sure I didn't miss it.

    In any case, NWN2 is a different game with somewhat different rules than NWN:EE. I'm not sure how a Monk 5/Wizard 5/Rogue 10 in NWN:EE would end up being a good build. I mean I'm sure it could clear the official campaigns but you can clear those with just about any build.

    Taking 5 levels of monk and wizard just seems strange, even in NWN2, since it hurts your BAB, and wizard just seems superfluous once you reach higher levels with scrolls and/or items that can cast those low level wizard spells. I mean sure, early on spells like Shield and Mage Armor are quite nice, but they lose their luster rather quickly as you level up and gain items that match or exceed their value.

    Now a monk 8/rogue 8/shadow dancer 4 seems somewhat interesting and the levels are more optimally allotted. Ideally you want most non-combat class levels pre-20 to be in sets of 4 because, outside of combat classes, the mid AB tier classes (rogues/monks/shadowdancers/etc) all gain 0 attack bonus on their 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level. Low AB tier classes like wizards only gain AB at even levels. So your 5 levels of wizard result in only 2 AB gained.

    That's why I find it strange that you're taking a 5 levels in monk and wizard.

    I will admit that my view on what constitutes a "good" build is also colored by playing on persistent worlds that don't use the standard items found in the toolset, because the original campaign modules often have powerful, immunity laden items found within. But to me, a build that relies solely on a High AC and hopes to whittle opponents down over an excessively long period of time isn't what I would consider a powerful build.

    Post edited by Nic_Mercy on
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 685
    @Nic_Mercy I also don't know what good the proposed combination is supposed to do in NWN nor NWN2 for that matter but I feel sometimes it's best to just refrain from discussion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but of course in the end it is a numbers game and she or he who gets the numbers gets the wins.

    @Proleric I tend to refrain from blaming the system as it does a good job outlining how such matters can be dealt with. It's not an inherent flaw in the system if players tend to ignore such guidelines. I don't believe any system can withstand the meddling of players, not even boardgames like monopoly.

    DerpCitydTdNic_MercyPrince_Raymond
  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 378
    edited December 2018

    @Nic_Mercy I also don't know what good the proposed combination is supposed to do in NWN nor NWN2 for that matter but I feel sometimes it's best to just refrain from discussion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but of course in the end it is a numbers game and she or he who gets the numbers gets the wins.

    /Sigh you're absolutely right. I knew that even when I was posting. So shame on me.

    Post edited by Nic_Mercy on
  • Nic_Mercy said:

    @Asturonethoriusaline I read your post thoroughly. At no point in your original post did you mention NWN2. You can go back and read it yourself to see that you didn't mention NWN2, not once. I saved a copy of the post in notepad just so I could do a thorough search and make sure I didn't miss it.

    In any case, NWN2 is a different game with somewhat different rules than NWN:EE. I'm not sure how a Monk 5/Wizard 5/Rogue 10 in NWN:EE would end up being a good build. I mean I'm sure it could clear the official campaigns but you can clear those with just about any build.

    Taking 5 levels of monk and wizard just seems strange, even in NWN2, since it hurts your BAB, and wizard just seems superfluous once you reach higher levels with scrolls and/or items that can cast those low level wizard spells. I mean sure, early on spells like Shield and Mage Armor are quite nice, but they lose their luster rather quickly as you level up and gain items that match or exceed their value.

    Now a monk 8/rogue 8/shadow dancer 4 seems somewhat interesting and the levels are more optimally allotted. Ideally you want most non-combat class levels pre-20 to be in sets of 4 because, outside of combat classes, the mid AB tier classes (rogues/monks/shadowdancers/etc) all gain 0 attack bonus on their 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level. Low AB tier classes like wizards only gain AB at even levels. So your 5 levels of wizard result in only 2 AB gained.

    That's why I find it strange that you're taking a 5 levels in monk and wizard.

    I will admit that my view on what constitutes a "good" build is also colored by playing on persistent worlds that don't use the standard items found in the toolset, because the original campaign modules often have powerful, immunity laden items found within. But to me, a build that relies solely on a High AC and hopes to whittle opponents down over an excessively long period of time isn't what I would consider a powerful build.

    1. Was not talking about my original post. I did clarify with more then 1 follow up clarifying post, that apparently your not understanding.

    2. Of course NVWN 2 is different from NVWN 1. Never said it was same.

    3. I said that the 4 class build was in NVWN 2, while the SIMILAR, ALMOST the same, NOT the same, 3 class build was on NVWN 1.

    4. I not only beat the OC, but DESTROYED, Cakewalked the OC, and Shadows of Undertide, and Heroes of the Underdark with the build.

    5. It wasnt what you said. i said Monk/Wizard/Rogue, without naming levels of each class.

    It was Monk 7/Wizard 7/Rog 6 with the about 12,13,14 BAB(BASE ATTACK BONUS), with a 13 Int(modified to a 14 by either a Tome, potion of Permanent Int increase, Item, etc), for 4th Level spell casting(int started at 12, dumped a point into it at 8th Level to get it to 13.

    6. There are not just level 1 buffing spells for AC. There is Cats Grace at Level 2. There is 1 AC buffing spell at level 3, and 1 AC buffing Spell at level 4. Spell Levels 3,4 have some pretty powerfull spells, when use right. Dont have to wait, get to 9th Level spells, 18th level Wizard.

    7. Yes there are, is some redundancy of Wizard Spells, and using UMD for scrolls, items. But UMD scrolls, Items, end up costing you a LOT of money, that can be saved thru spell use, freeing money up for I dont know how about that glove, gauntlet of Dex +5 or Armor +5, or Amulet of Natural Armor +5, that cost about 85k to 175k

    8. While I do put points into UMD, wizard spells lets me put less into UMD skill.
    If either max out or put lot of points into UMD, then the Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Disable Device, Open Locks, Discipline, Tumble, Parry, etc, wont have as much skill point ranks.

    Also UMD is either Cha, Int based. And since low +1 bonus on int, for most of game, and since 8 cha with -2 penalty, anti bonus, it takes a lot of skill point ranks for UMD.

    And if say to put cha, int higher, then wont be able to get Str 10, Dex 18, Con 10, int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8. to start.

    And I wouldnt be able to pump up int, cha for UMD without hurting weapon finesse, dexterity based attack bonus, AC

    And even if went with Str 10, Dex 16, con 10, int 12, Wis 16, cha 12, that still wouldnt help UMD much.

    I would have to go with Str 10, Dex 16, con 10, int 13, Wis 14, Cha 13, then dump 2 stat points into int, cha, for a 14 int, Cha 14, and a LOW AC, and lessen even gimp other skills to make UMD viable early to mid game.

    It just isnt worth it.

    9. You are constantly bemoaning the Almighty, according to you BAB(BASE ATTACK BONUS)(NOT AB ATTACK BONUS as AB is BAB + STR OR DEX BONUS + WEAPON ENHANCEMENT BONUS)yes that is a concern for most builds

    BAB is only HALF of ATTACK BONUS. When you roll your D20. You add your TOTAL ATTACK BONUS. BAB + Dex, strength bonus + Weapon Enhancement bonus, equals total Attack bonus. So you can have a HIGH Attack Bonus with a Lower BAB. Example of this is a level 1 Wizard or Level 1 Rogue, or Level 1 Bard, or Level 1 Ranger with a 18 dex, with a attack bonus of 0,1 + 4 dex bonus, for a attack bonus of 4,5, being able to hit better with a ranged weapon, then the 15 str 14 Dex, 16 Con, int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10 fighter that has a +3 total attack bonus, compared to the ÷4,5 ranged total attack bonus, wizard, rogue, bard, etc.

    Next a lower BAB can not only be mitigated by a higher DEX Bonus, higher Dexterity, but can also be mitigated by MORE ATTACKS PER ROUND AT HIGH ATTACK BONUS BECAUSE OF HIGH DEXTERITY, DEXTERITY BONUS.

    So because of that your OVERVALUING BAB. Yes a higher BAB, is best in most to almost all builds, but there are exceptions, when its ok to have a lower BAB. Its a matter of synergies, tradeoffs, and can you get a higher dex bonus, for a high attack bonus, and can you get lots of attacks.

    10. Yes I know that have to spend a feat on Weapon Finesse, instead of on something that could be better, by having a higher strength, or just going ranged instead of melee. But the trade off is worth it, if have a high Dex.

    11. You can have a high dex, dex bonus. You can easilly start with a 18 dex, get it up to 23 dex by dumping stat points every 4 levels till 20th level then use a +5 item of dex to get it to 28 then get it to 30 to 34 by casting, using a cats grace scroll, item.

    That's +12 to your attack bonus for about a +25 total attack bonus, then if you add in a +5 weapon thats +3. Total attack bonus for D20 +30

    That also allows for D20 +30 total attack bonus, + 30 Parry for 10+ 30 +30 =70 to easily Parry, Counter attack EVERY ATTACK, whether it would hit you or not preparry.

    That puts your LOTS OF DEX BASED SKILLS AT EXTREMELY HIGH LEVELS

    Gives you a extremely high reflex save.

    Dexterity helps do so many things with this build. Thats why you build dex up, build around it, take feats like weapon finesse, etc.

    12. You may think buff spells lose their value at higher level, but here is why that is not true.

    Most of the buff spells STACK combined with other stackable buff spells, and stackable bonus giving items, as long as not the same bonus, ie you cant stack a deflection bonus onto a deflection bonus but can stack a deflection and a shield bonus(spell), and a higher dex bonus(spell or item), Armor Bonus(spell or item), natural armor(item because wizard no have natural armor spell like Barkskin(Druid),etc.

    This allows mixmatching of spells, potions, items, when potion, items, might either be used up, not available, or when run out of spells.

    Also this allows your AC to be about 7 to 13 to 17 points higher with the stacked buff spells, combined with stacked potions, stacked items, all combined, stacked together.

    Having about a 55 AC, is better then a 47 AC. It may not seem that way. But if trying to be a ALMOST UNHITTABLE, A 47 AC can be easily hit, while a 55 AC can be extremely hard to hit.

    13. And thats the Value of the build. The build is designed to be a extremely high 55+ AC that is almost impossible to hit, that when hit is easily parried, even more almost impossible to hit.

    A. After that the build has a high +30 total attack bonus thru weapon finesse, high dexterity high dex bonus

    B. Has a high number of attacks thru Flurry, Whirlwind attack, 2 weapon fighting, 2 Kama's that are improved critical feat.

    C. Because of that +30 attack, AC 55+, extremely high parry, high number of attacks per round, improved critical, sneak attack, etc, you attack often, you hit often, and you do ok, just barely a little tiny bit less damage, so that you have enemies in vain attack you, miss you, while you, henchman eventually finish off enemies

    13. The ONLY weaknesses is A. Less HP, B. Less str. C. Do less damage D. Weaker against Hordes, until your wizard spells deal with hordes. But those are fair trade offs for not being hit, being able to parry attacks, having lots of attacks per round

    14. The wizard spells help you with a lot of in game things like hordes, etc.

    15. The Dex based Rogue skills help you do without Tomi in your party.

    16. The build makes it so that dont need the wizard NPC, Tomi the rogue, the bard, to where you only need, want Grim the monk, Linu the cleric, Daelan Red Tiger

    17. The build has a lot of VERSATILITY with a lot of SYNERGY, While NOT being WATERED down to much, and has FAIR, GOOD TRADEOFFS

    18. The build is NOT perfect, NOT MIN/MAXED, OPTIMIZED PERFECTLY, but it is ONE OF the BETTER, NOT the best, multiclass builds if you build it right, despite what you say.

    19. About GEAR. Yes gear helps make this build. But if you took away the abilities, feats, spells, etc, the AC would be about 33 to about 39, at best, with Just Gear. If you add in the abilities, feats, spells, etc, to the gear, AC is about 55+, way better then 33 to 39. So this is not just a gear build. Fighters, and other characters that rely heavily on Armor items, items, like Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Barbarians, Clerics(with their Tank Armor), are gear dependent builds.

    Monks, Wizards, Rogues, Bards, are not gear dependent. And Monk/Wizard/Rogue's are not gear dependent. Take away abilities, feats, spells, etc, and only have GEAR, and a Monk/wizard/rogue would be crap, with a low 30 AC at high level.

    20 like I said before you are hung up on BAB base attack bonus, and UMD, and min/maxing, optimizing to absolute perfection, and are not good with TRADEOFFS, VERSATILITY, ANY REDUNDANCIES, BACK UPS, GEAR, ETC.

    To you, you would rather have a 100 BAB, deal 1 million damage, have 1 million hp, have ALMOST NO, WEAK GEAR, LESS TRADEOFFS, LESS REDUNDANCIES, LESS VERSATILITY, NO BACK UPS, PERFECT MIN/MAX/OPTIMIZATION, etc.

    And thats perfectly ok, if thats what you want.

    But I want something different.

    I want a 35 dex, i want a D20 +33 total attack bonus, I want 5 to 10 aatacks per round with Flurry, with 2 Kama's, with 2 weapon fighting, with Whirlwind attack, with Cleave, etc. I want a 55 to 63 AC, I want a D20(10 on average or take 10) + 33 total attack bonus + 30 Parry = A EXTREMELY HIGH 73 SEVENTY THREE PARRY THAT PARRIES, COUNTER ATTACKS EVERYTHING. I want VERSATILITY, up to 4th level wizard spells. I want Buff Spells, I want options, back ups, fall backs, etc.i want the monsters, enemies to uselessly attack, miss me, get parried, have me, henchman defeat monster, enemy while its stupidly attacking me, instead of my more vulnerable henchman(kind of sucks tho when a smart enemy ignores me, and kills everybody else). I want TRADEOFFS.

    And I get, have, done all that. I DESTROYED the Official Campaign, Shadow of, Heroes of the underdark, all 3 main mods, with this build

    21. And like I said before, you are nickling, diming, being sticklerish, about my post, build, etc, and only reading my original post, and not understanding, not accepting clarification.

    22. So why dont you take the advice of the other poster.

    23. Drop it.

    24. Move on.

    25. I am done here, moving on, even if you arent.

    26. I think I have shown why this is a good, great, one of the better builds to everyone else but you

    27. Amd thats ok, you, others like uou dont have to like the build.

    28. I like the build. It has eorked awesome for me. And thats all that matters for me.

    29. Done



  • I'm now working on a Monk/Shadowdancer/Assassin build that is now Monk 5/Assassin 1, that will take 1 more Assassin Level at level 7, then a Shadowdancer Level at level 8, then build Assassin/Shadowdancer levels to level 5, but take s 20% xp penalty til Assassin, Shadowdancer levels hit level 4, 1 level below level 5 monk, then build all levels equally

    Should be about Monk 6/Shadowdancer 6/Assassin 6 character

    Also working on a Monk/druid/Rogue.

    Its at Monk 2/Druid 1. Taking Rogue 1 at 4th level for a Monk 2/Druid 1/ Rogue 1

    Couldnt take Rogue 1 at 3rd level, because couldnt get Weapon Finesse at 3rd level, if I took rogue 1 level at 3rd level.

    Like the big Brown Bear at 2nd level, and having a party of 3(Me, Brown Bear, Tomi)

    And if thats not cool enough, getting healing spells, entangle, barkskin, buffs, AC buffs, sneak attacks, etc, is pretty cool too. Also make it so that only will need only Grim the evil longdeath monk, and or Daelan Red Tiger, the other 4 henchmen, linu, the bard, tomi, etc, can go take a hike, dont need, want them.

  • JhaerikJhaerik Member Posts: 17
    edited December 2018
    There are some melee builds which just absolutely blow pure class melees out of the water.

    Bard/RDD/PM (At 30+ can hit 90AC+ in +5 gear.)
    Wiz/PM/DD (Literally can't die vs other melee PvM)
    They are generally your all around best "tanky" bets.

    Bard/RDD/BG (60+AB/80+AC fully built, generally considered the best melee build)
    Pal/Sorc/RDD (Both str and cha stack smiter varients)
    Bard/RDD/CoT

    Are great mixes of tanky and damage.

    Fighter/WM/Rogue
    Fighter/WM/Monk (Most chances to get dev crit.)
    Fighter/WM/Barb
    Barb/WM/Rogue (Feat starved but insane damage on anything with low AC/not crit immune)
    Can all Rock out some serious damage on anything not crit immune.

    There are some pretty good e-dodge tank builds out there too.

    Any dexer build with SD levels is also very strong.
    Also there is the classic Druid/Monk/Shifter and Druid/Monk/X Shifted/Dragon builds.

    Generally speaking pure class melee is pretty terrible... though the Single player game is so easy you can finish it on insane with the absolute worst build you could possibly make I'm fairly sure.




    ricoyung
  • Jhaerik, what is RDD, and BG? Also how are you getting a 80 AC? The highest AC me and anybody I know, in NVWN 1, NVWN 2, PNP, etc, is a 69+ AC. And that was with a monk build, epic +6 gear, Dodge, Parry(the feat(+2 to AC), Improved Parry(+5 to AC), BUFFS, Expertise, improved or epic expertise, a 35 Dexterity, 25 to 30 Wis, 20th to 40th level.

    So how do you get a 80 AC with a nonmonk?

    Also the highest AC I have seen a melee character get is a D20(10)+ about a 23 BAB, +7 epic artifact, relic weapon, either +13 str bonus, or +13 Dex bonus +6 epic either weapon focus, and or +6 epic weapon specialization, an or epic weapon master, an or epic +6 melee feat +6 epic BUFF for 67. Meaning that if roll a 19, could hit 77.

    The absolute best according to WOTC, is Asmodeus with about a 88 AC, and that about the only thing that could hit that high of a AC was something like Bahamut(2500 to 5000 hp, stats at about between 50 to 100 attribute stats, Breath Weapon about 200 to 1000 damage, Total Attack Bonus +85/+75/+65/+55 AC 85

    So according to that, your characters are powerfull enough at about, between 20th to 40th to Kill the Lady of Pain(ruler of Sigil), Bahamut, Asmodeus, etc, (40th to 60th level, epic level encounters)some of the most powerful Gods, things, etc, in all of D&D according to WOTC books.

    So HOW are your characters able to have epic level, 40th to 60th Level, 80 AC, and able to hit 90 AC?

  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 378
    edited December 2018
    @Asturonethoriusaline

    RDD = Red Dragon Disciple
    BG = Blackguard

    Such high AC is possible in NWN1 on non-monks by using levels of Red Dragon Disciple and Palemaster (both of which give ac increases) and also the spell Epic Mage Armor (which is accessible with enough levels of Palemaster when taken at a high enough level).

    It's what makes a Bard/Red Dragon Disciple/Palemaster combo so potent. High strength from all the free stats RDD gives = easy Devastating Critical, Immunity to crits and sneak attacks thanks to Palemaster, immunity to fire, paralysis, and sleep from RDD, oodles of AC from both (and perhaps 2-3 more ac from Bard Song), access to Epic Mage Armor and Epic Warding, all add up to it being one of the more powerful builds out there. Even with just a set of non-magical plate, a non-magical tower shield, and a non-magical scimitar, it can have around 70 AC (with self buffs from bard spells and epic mage armor). Magical gear just makes it even better. The only real "weaknesses" in the build (if you can call them that), are the lack of Evasion and only 3 attacks per round since its pre-20 BAB doesn't get higher than 15.

    Pre-20 BAB matters because it determines your number of attacks per round. +6 to +10 BAB gives you two attack per round, +11 to +15 gives you three attacks per round, and +16 or higher gets you four attacks per round. This only counts for your BAB up to level 20. BAB from epic levels and any attack bonuses you get from feats, high stats, and enchanted weapons don't affect your number of attacks, only your pre-20 BAB and things like Haste, monk's flurry of blows, rapid shot, etc. do.

    Just to note, I don't remember if its different in NWN2, but NWN1's implementation of the parry mechanic is almost universally considered bad and most builds eschew using it. It ends up not parrying as many attacks as it should, which means it does less counter attacks than it should, assuming I remember correctly.

    Post edited by Nic_Mercy on
    ricoyungThorsson
  • Thanks for your explanation. I still dont see those 80+ AC's. I might need a sample example build that breaks down ability by ability, feat by feat, dex, gear, etc, exactly how it gets to 80 AC.

    As for Parry. I have heard complaints about Parry. But no one explains why, and just parrots everybody elses complaints about Parry.

    All I know is that I was pulling off a 70+ Parry roll, and Parried everything, and parried equal to my attacks per round in NVWN 1 OC, Shadows, HOTU.

    That said, I could, can see the problem that it takes LOTS of Skill Points, and the improved parry feat(+4), and a +3 parry skill feat, and maxing it out, while maxing out your attacks per round, to make it work.

    So unless going to make it a dedicated Parry character, parry probably is not worth it, because have to give up, sacrifice so much to make it work.

    Think Parry would be better as a feat, path of feats. Parry the feat would add +3, or +4 to AC. Improved Parry feat would add either +5 to AC or Parry all attacks, except crits, epic parry feat would either parry all attacks, except crits, or counter attack those that either miss, or just barely hit high enough to hit AC. Epic Improved Parry would parry everything and counter attack on everything.

    Only problem with that is it might be too powerful. And if add just 2,3,4 to AC per Parry feat, might be too weak.

    As if I think the parry system as is, is just fine, is balanced.

    Like I said I Parried everything. But then again, I am not playing multi player, PW, PVP yet, so Parry may suck in PVP, PW, Multi player, especially if have to go up against things that can hit a 90 AC.

  • What do you guys think of a Bard/Shadowdancer/Assassin build?

    And how would you optimize the build?

    What are the starting stats?

    How about Str 12,14, Dex 16,17,18, Con 10,12, Int 12,13, Wis 10,12, Cha 13,14,15?

    Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Mobility, Expertise, Disarm, Parry(skill), 2 weapon feat, Inproved Parry, Inproved Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Critical, Whirlwind Attack

    Elf, or Halfling

    How many Levels of each class?

    How about Bard 7/Shadowdancer 6/Assassin 6?

  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 378
    edited December 2018
    @Asturonethoriusaline

    For your Bard/Shadow Dancer/Assassin, I would go with Bard 8/Assassin 8/Shadow Dancer 4
    Beyond level 20 the build could be:
    Bard 9/Assassin 27/Shadow Dancer 4 if you want to have a high Death Attack or you can reduce the number of Assassin levels to take more Bard levels for more spells. Whatever build you go with, your last level of Bard is taken at 40 to max your skills.

    Halfling - STR: 10, DEX: 18, CON: 10, INT: 14, WIS: 10, CHA: 14

    All level up points go into DEX
    Skills to max are: Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Use Magic Device - though you will also need to put 15 points into Perform so your Bard Song will be as strong as it can be for at least Bard level 8. Leftover points can be used in other useful skills like Heal, Discipline, etc but that's up to you.

    01: Bard 1 - Strong Soul (this feat boosts your weakest saves and gives an additional bonus vs death magic)
    02: Bard 2
    03: Bard 3 - Weapon Finesse
    04: Bard 4 - +1 DEX
    05: Bard 5
    06: Assassin 1 - Dodge
    07: Assassin 2
    08: Assassin 3 - +1 DEX
    09: Assassin 4 - Mobility
    10: Shadow Dancer 1
    11: Shadow Dancer 2
    12: Shadow Dancer 3 - +1 DEX, Weapon Focus (I chose sickle for testing purposes)
    13: Shadow Dancer 4
    14: Bard 6 - To catch up on certain skills and make sure Perform is at 15
    15: Assassin 5 - Great Fortitude (fortitude is this build's weakest, this feat helps address that)
    16: Assassin 6 - +1 DEX
    17: Assassin 7
    18: Assassin 8 - Improved Critical (I chose sickle as above)
    19: Bard 7
    20: Bard 8 - At this point you need to decide if you're going to focus more towards Assassin or Bard in the epic levels and if you are going to go heavily into Bard you'll want to devote more skill points to Perform.

    With only a normal sickle, normal cloth armor, a normal large shield and only self buffs from bard spells (resistance, mage armor and cats grace assuming +5) and bard song, this build has an AC of 29, an AB of +27/+22/+17 and saving throws of Fort: 11, Reflex: 28, Will 13

    With a+5 weapon, +5 cloth armor, +5 large shield, a +5 cloak of fortification (+5 ac and +5 saves), a +5 natural armor amulet, some boots of speed and +12 to dex from items/buffs it looks like this:
    AC = 53, AB = +35/+30/+25, Saves = Fort:16, Ref: 36, Will: 18

    Obviously those numbers will differ depending on the specific gear you actually use. In fact, saves will likely be better and you'll have immunity items if you're playing the default campaigns. I merely threw together some generic level 20 gear for testing purposes so you could have some numbers close to what you might see during game play.


    The Bard/RDD/PM build is more involved but I go with human and take martial weapons and heavy armor proficiency at level 1 because otherwise you're selection is... not good. Perhaps tomorrow I will break it down but for now its bed time. Have a happy holiday!

  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 378
    edited December 2018
    @Asturonethoriusaline

    For your Bard/Shadow Dancer/Assassin, I would go with Bard 8/Assassin 8/Shadow Dancer 4
    Beyond level 20 the build could be:
    Bard 9/Assassin 27/Shadow Dancer 4 if you want to have a high Death Attack or you can reduce the number of Assassin levels to take more Bard levels for more spells. Whatever build you go with, your last level of Bard is taken at 40 to max your skills.

    Halfling - STR: 10, DEX: 18, CON: 10, INT: 14, WIS: 10, CHA: 14

    All level up points go into DEX
    Skills to max are: Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Use Magic Device - though you will also need to put 15 points into Perform so your Bard Song will be as strong as it can be for at least Bard level 8. Leftover points can be used in other useful skills like Heal, Discipline, etc but that's up to you.

    01: Bard 1 - Strong Soul (this feat boosts your weakest saves and gives an additional bonus vs death magic)
    02: Bard 2
    03: Bard 3 - Weapon Finesse
    04: Bard 4 - +1 DEX
    05: Bard 5
    06: Assassin 1 - Dodge
    07: Assassin 2
    08: Assassin 3 - +1 DEX
    09: Assassin 4 - Mobility
    10: Shadow Dancer 1
    11: Shadow Dancer 2
    12: Shadow Dancer 3 - +1 DEX, Weapon Focus (I chose sickle for testing purposes)
    13: Shadow Dancer 4
    14: Bard 6 - To catch up on certain skills and make sure Perform is at 15
    15: Assassin 5 - Great Fortitude (fortitude is this build's weakest, this feat helps address that)
    16: Assassin 6 - +1 DEX
    17: Assassin 7
    18: Assassin 8 - Improved Critical (I chose sickle as above)
    19: Bard 7
    20: Bard 8 - At this point you need to decide if you're going to focus more towards Assassin or Bard in the epic levels and if you are going to go heavily into Bard you'll want to devote more skill points to Perform.

    With only a normal sickle, normal cloth armor, a normal large shield and only self buffs from bard spells (resistance, mage armor and cats grace assuming +5) and bard song, at level 20 this build has an AC of 29, an AB of +27/+22/+17 and saving throws of Fort: 11, Reflex: 28, Will 13

    With a+5 weapon, +5 cloth armor, +5 large shield, a +5 cloak of fortification (+5 ac and +5 saves), a +5 natural armor amulet, some boots of speed and +12 to dex from items/buffs it looks like this:
    AC = 53, AB = +35/+30/+25, Saves = Fort:16, Ref: 36, Will: 18

    Obviously those numbers will differ depending on the specific gear you actually use. In fact, saves will likely be better and you'll have immunity items if you're playing the default campaigns. I merely threw together some generic level 20 gear for testing purposes so you could have some numbers close to what you might see during game play.


    The Bard/RDD/PM build is more involved but I go with human and take martial weapons and heavy armor proficiency at level 1 because otherwise you're selection is... not good. Perhaps tomorrow I will break it down but for now its bed time. Have a happy holiday!

  • Thanks. I don't agree with strong soul, great fortitude, and dont agree with taking 4 assassin levels, after the bard levels, as that leads to bad xp penalties, as each class that uneven, is xp penalty, and none of the 3 classes are, is a favored class

    Otherwise, I agree with between some to almost most of what you said.

    Gives me a basic frame of reference.

    Thanks.

  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 378
    edited December 2018

    Thanks. I don't agree with strong soul, great fortitude, and dont agree with taking 4 assassin levels, after the bard levels, as that leads to bad xp penalties, as each class that uneven, is xp penalty, and none of the 3 classes are, is a favored class

    Otherwise, I agree with between some to almost most of what you said.

    Gives me a basic frame of reference.

    Thanks.

    There's no xp penalty with that build. Prestige classes (Assassin and Shadow Dancer) do not count for multiclass xp penalties.

    From the wiki:

    Prestige classes are exempt from the multiclass XP rule and do not count against the character. For example a 20th-level character (10th-level rogue/3rd-level shadowdancer/7th-level assassin) will not suffer any XP penalties no matter what race the character has chosen.


    As for Strong Soul and Great Fortitude, feel free to swap those out. I design builds with optimal power in mind before factoring in any gear and try to minimize the weaknesses where I can. Losing those will drop your fort save by 3 and will save by 1 leaving you more vulnerable to things using those saves but in a campaign with immunity items that's probably a non-issue. In place of those you could grab Lingering Song and Extra Music as a Bard giving you more uses of your Bard Song and allowing it to last longer

    I wouldn't change the level allotments though. They ensure your BAB is as high as it can be for that class combo. Any changing will lower your AB making it more difficult to hit higher AC foes.

    Also a reminder: Parry does not work well in NWN and should be avoided. It does not parry/counter attack as many attacks as it should.

    Post edited by Nic_Mercy on
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 685
    There are lots of ways to game the AC in NWN, just look at one of the dumbest and simplest examples that has been common knowledge since 2004:

    Level 40, bard/pm/rdd. 10 base + 1 dodge feat + 8 tumble + 1 dex + 8 full plate + 3 tower shield + 10 improved expertise + 2 armor skin feat + 16 pale master + 3 dragon disciple = 62 ac before magic, with magic +5 armor enhancement + 5 dodge boots + 5 natural armor amulet + 5 shield enhancement + 5 deflection = total 87

    That's not even the highest you can possibly go or even optimized in any way.

    People don't use parry because you can only parry once per flurry but it's possible to make up to 10 attacks per round.

    You can find the information you need on the nwn wiki or just play multiplayer.

    ricoyung
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