Cleric Levels Higher than 20? - Turn Undead and Spell Effectiveness
BelgarathMTH
Member Posts: 5,653
Hi, I've always wanted to try building a cleric as a specialized undead blaster. (I know this is a sub-optimal build. I want to do it for class fantasy and roleplay.) I plan to take Sun and Good domains, so I will also be able to turn demons and elementals. (Are those the only two creature types that qualify as "outsiders"?)
I can't find any clear information about whether there is any benefit at all to cleric levels higher than 20, so I'm hoping one of the powerbuild experts here can tell me.
Do cleric levels 21-40 add to cleric level for turning undead? If you were to go all the way to Cleric 40, would your base turning level be 40, or does it max out at 20?
I have the same question for spell power and DC. Is there any benefit at all to cleric spells cast at 20+? I've always read that spell effectiveness variables max out at 20, making levels higher than 20 in that spell caster class completely wasted.
What about epic feats? Is there an epic undead turning feat? What are the prerequisites for it?
If cleric levels beyond 20 are a complete waste of levels, then I'd probably go for something like cleric20/fighter20, taking all my post-20 levels in fighter, or possibly divine champion, although I'm not sure I want to waste feats on the prerequisites for that, or invest enough in charisma to make divine champion abilities very useful.
My thanks for any information. Clear answers to these specific questions are very hard to find.
I can't find any clear information about whether there is any benefit at all to cleric levels higher than 20, so I'm hoping one of the powerbuild experts here can tell me.
Do cleric levels 21-40 add to cleric level for turning undead? If you were to go all the way to Cleric 40, would your base turning level be 40, or does it max out at 20?
I have the same question for spell power and DC. Is there any benefit at all to cleric spells cast at 20+? I've always read that spell effectiveness variables max out at 20, making levels higher than 20 in that spell caster class completely wasted.
What about epic feats? Is there an epic undead turning feat? What are the prerequisites for it?
If cleric levels beyond 20 are a complete waste of levels, then I'd probably go for something like cleric20/fighter20, taking all my post-20 levels in fighter, or possibly divine champion, although I'm not sure I want to waste feats on the prerequisites for that, or invest enough in charisma to make divine champion abilities very useful.
My thanks for any information. Clear answers to these specific questions are very hard to find.
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Comments
Cleric 20/Fighter 20 is probably better for the extra feats, unless maybe the few perks like immunities and smitings from paladin classes are worth fewer feats.
Given you can rest more or less at will in NWN, I found the extra turning feat to be the strongest turn-booster in the game (who cares if you burn 3-4 attempts at a time when you can recover them all as soon as the battle is over). Second place would be a relatively high charisma, modified by as many charisma-boosting items as you can find (which stack up to a cap of +12, unlike the pencil-and-paper game which only lets you wear one charisma-boosting item at a time).
Splashing four levels of fighter would be a common choice if you wanted to be able to hold your own in melee against undead. That said, I wonder if it would be more thematically interesting to level up once as a ranger (with favored enemy undead of course) which would give you three bonus feats immediately without the high caster-level cost of a deep fighter splash. You could also consider a level of paladin for the charisma save bonus, which if you are maxing charisma would give you a lot more melee staying power in battles against the undead.
The main question is, is it possible to have a base 40 Turn Undead level? Does the game include levels beyond level 20 in the formula? If cleric and paladin levels stack, how does that formula work exactly, considering that the paladin turns at two levels lower than his class level? I was pretty sure I tried it once, and the paladin had its own Turn Undead on the radial menu starting at Paladin 3, which was completely separate from my cleric Turn Undead radial control. (The total number of attempts was also different for each class. I had x cleric turn attempts and y paladin turn attempts.)
The second question is, are there any spells where a caster level of higher than 20 will make any difference?
There's no mention of there being a limit at 20. So if you have 40 cleric levels and the Sun domain you should have the highest possible turning potency. If you're mixing Paladin or Blackguard levels in, it seems to indicate your upper limit would be level 38 as far as turning potency goes.
Also quick note, Elementals are not considered Outsiders. You won't be able to turn them with the Good domain. Elementals have their own classification as "Elemental". The various elemental domains allow you to turn Elementals but the Good domain does not.
As for spells, any spell with a duration/per level will continue to improve past 20. While this won't really affect you, in cases of clerics with domains like Protection or Travel that have strong buffing spells with 1 round/level durations (Minor Globe or Haste for example), having a high caster level coupled with the Extend Spell feat should allow those buffs to last long enough not to need a refresh between rests.
Your caster level is also relevant for overcoming spell resistance. So having a lower caster level can make it difficult to affect creatures with a high Spell Resistance. This is usually not a huge deal for clerics though since they don't often use their spells offensively on enemies, preferring instead to buff themselves, though a lower caster level does make it easier for high level casters to dispel your buffs.
I've turned elementals before with the good domain, (specifically the ones in time-travel adventure about the two brothers in Chapter 2 of the OC), so unless that got changed in EE, I'm not sure you're correct about that. (It could be a case of game implementation not matching up perfectly with documentation.)
From the wiki:
I believe you may be misremembering or perhaps confusing the creatures you turned in your time in Castle Jhareg based on how they are named.
The Mephits (e.g. Air Mephit, Fire Mephit, etc) and the Red Slaads you encounter there are classified as "Outsider" and thus turnable via the Good domain, but creatures such as Fire Elementals are classified as "Elemental" and are NOT turnable via the Good domain but ARE turnable if you have any of the four elemental domains.
If you want to be an uber turner you could opt to take the sun domain (better turning) and an elemental domain (turn elementals) and also take the epic feat Planar Turning (an alternative to the Good domain to turn outsiders). Alternatively you could substitute an elemental domain for the Plant domain to be able to turn Vermin instead or the Destruction domain to damage constructs with your turn attempts.
So a single classes Fighter gets a BAB every level. At 20 they have a BAB of 20 and at 40 they have a BAB of 30, the highest BAB you can have. A single classed Cleric on the other hand only has a 15 BAB at level 20 and thus only makes three attacks per round instead of four. But if that Cleric instead chooses to go Cleric 16/Fighter 4, their final BAB at 20 will be 16 and thus they just meet the requirement for making 4 attacks per round.