Are there so few PST mods because modding it is harder?

BCaesar

Hello all,
I noticed that PST:EE has way fewer mods and almost none that added content (characters, quests, whatever) compared to the Baldur's Gate games. Is it because it is significantly harder to mod PST (or at least was before the EE) or is it just that BG2 had a lot more fans and developed a much larger modding community?

I don't plan on getting distracted from the BG2 mod that Ratatoskr and myself are working on until it's finished, but PST is one of my favorite games, it would be cool to mod it.

Also has anyone tried porting PST characters into Baldur's Gate?

Thanks.

NicolBluetooth

I don't think PST:EE is harder to mod than the original, the IE games are just hard to program for in general. WeiDU comes with a function index, but there are little to no big comprehensive tutorials on how to program for it like there are for languages like Python and C and Unreal. And what you can do is limited by how much of the game logic is hard-coded into the closed-source game executables. I've been trying to program a small PST:EE mod myself, and though I've worked on and off on it for a year and a half now, I haven't gotten it to work at all because I don't know how to add additional conditional OR statements to preexisting dialog and sales triggers without causing an error. It's not easy, but Baldur's Gate modders just work through the difficulties. There are more BG mods than PST mods because there are more Baldur's Gate games, and because it's a bigger series with more fans.

BCaesar

Oh I know, the learning curve on coding the IE mods is crazy. I can do it now, but I was just wondering if it was more difficult with PST than with BG2.

Or is it just that with BG2 there are examples, but if I wanted to add a new character or dialogue for PST I have no mods to copy as examples (which is how I learned most of what I know about modding Baldur's Gate)?

I wonder if it's possible to add PST dialogue the same way I add BG2 dialogue... (successfully resists lure to become distracted into a PST coding tangent until current mod is finished).

MiraStastny

I think it's partly because PST as it is, is treated pretty much like a sacred treasure and even UB was made with incredible care. Let me put this way: Does PST really need a new content?

BCaesar

Mirak said:

I think it's partly because PST as it is, is treated pretty much like a sacred treasure and even UB was made with incredible care. Let me put this way: Does PST really need a new content?

Of course it is, it's one of the greatest games ever made.

That being said.... sure, why not? Someone go import Minsc into PST:EE. I'd install it just for the hell of it.

Aquadrizzt

Having messed around a lot with modding Planescape, it is definitely harder to mod in any significant way than the other Enhanced Edition games. A lot of the game's internal logic is hard-coded or otherwise made inaccessible, and even small things like items and spells behave differently (from a modding side) than they do in BGEE or IWDEE, which makes adding new content difficult.

Kits are, as far as i can tell, a no-go in PST, and adding new spells to the mage or priest spell list has proven remarkably difficult. The only classes that are supported for PC ability menus are the ones available on the companions (e.g. Fighter, Mage, Thief, Priest, Fighter/Thief, Fighter/Mage). No bards, paladins, or what have you. Sorcerers might work, but PSTEE lacks the requisite UI to handle sorcerer spell selection, so that'd have to be developed and even then I'm not sure it would work properly.

Animations in PST have a different quantity of frames and are differently structured than their BG/IWD counterparts, so adding new monsters would be quite difficult if you were not well-versed in sprite-based animations.

The "easiest" content to add would probably be quest content, because the dialog/script system in PST is quite similar in behavior to the other games (although there is a different dialog/script triggers and actions for which you'd have to adjust). Items are also pretty well-behaved in comparison to other content, but once again, you do have to be mindful of the differences between engines while designing items.

megamike15

i always felt the reason was more due to it being harder to justify adding new content to pst compared to bg. you can add as much stuff to bg as you want as it fits the overall story of you being an adventurer. pst however is alot more structured around every quest being centered around tno's past incarnations . so besides an ub mod a fix pack and a tweak pack no one really wanted to do something that would "taint." pst.

BCaesar

PST was also a lot more broken than BG1 and 2. I mean BG1 and 2 basically worked out of the box. I remember buying a later edition of PST (included all the official patches I think) years ago and it was still a mess. I loved it, played it all the way through without any mods, saved a lot, and nursed it through all its various mechanical dysfunctions and it was worth it. But from a technical standpoint it was basically an unfinished product compared to Baldur's Gate. PST really needed to be modded just to work properly and BG1 and 2 didn't (this also meant that a lot more people played BG1 and 2).

So a lot of time was spent modding PST just to make it work right. BG1 was modded to give it all the useful things that BG2 had implemented, and then BG2 was a fully complete game in so many ways so there was a community of people going nuts making all kinds of content mods. Some were well made mods with good writing, some were well-made mods with awful writing, some were both glitch-filled and poorly written so anyone who wants to make a mod can say, "Hey it's still better than some of the stuff out there." I know that was my justification/motivation.

But with PST you'd basically be the first. Who wants to introduce the first new character or the first new quest/dialogues to PST, put in a whole bunch of hours, and then have a whole bunch of people angry and spend their time publicly hating you (probably without even playing the mod) because you dared to modify PST?

I mean I would, but I don't have the time right at this moment.

Aquadrizzt

I don't really feel like Planescape is *that* sacred, it's just that the intersection of those who know how to mod it, those who have the time, and those who are willing to expend the effort to work through the PST engine's unique annoyances is pretty small. I mean, hell, I have the symbol of Torment tattoo'd on my shoulder and the first thing I did when PSTEE happened was write a bunch of mods for it (admittedly to mixed degrees of completion and success).

There is so much I think could be done with PSTEE, but it's more of a cult classic than BG2 (thus less interest) and it's engine is an absolute nightmare to mod (thus more effort for lower impact). I honestly think that the best thing that could be done is to port the entire thing into the BG2 engine (a la EET, IWDinBG2EE, etc) and work from there. I actually had a project years ago that did that with the original PST before I was informed that my work might be redundant, but the code should still work if I can find it.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of PST's engine's... character would be lost in the conversion to a more stable version of the Infinity Engine. The animated NPC portraits and the over-the-top spell animations are both delightful (albeit nightmares to actually implement), and losing those would definitely take out some of the janky charm of the original.

BCaesar

Yeah the tone and image of the whole place matters. Making it like BG2 would make it to... light? I don't know how to describe it.

The spell animations are awesome. I remember just staying as a wizard just so I could get as high a level as possible and see all of them. I wasn't disappointed.