Mod for charisma having an effect on Sorcerers?

Ludwig_II

As per the title. Is there a mod for that implements Charisma having any effect for spells of Sorcerers in any way?

It would help with the ability points to have more relevance to the sorcerer

Grammarsalad

I don't think that there is anything so far. But, give me about a week. I'll see what I can come up with.

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Grammarsalad

subtledoctor said:

Tome & Blood has a component that gives extra spell slots to sorcerers for high CHA scores...

Okay, cool. I was actually going to do that. I'll still make a mod that imposes a save penalty for sorcerers with high charisma.

Any requests? Right now I'm thinking about something with the following components:

Sorcerer: High Charisma imposes save penalties on targets
Bard: High Charisma (or intelligence) imposes save penalties on targets
Mage: High Intelligence imposes save penalties on targets
Clerics (and/or Paladins): High Wisdom imposes save penalties
Druids (and/or Rangers): High Wisdom imposes save penalties

I'm thinking:

Cha/Int/Wis: 16 -1 to save
Cha/Int/Wis: 17 -2 to save
Cha/Int/Wis: 18 -3 to save
Cha/Int/Wis: 19+ -4 to save

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Ludwig_II

Thanks for the replies guys.

Grammersalad, what you propose sounds cool but overpowered. I was thinking more like granting a few bonus spells (either to number of learned spells, or to number of castings for a few spell levels) just like how it is now for Wisdom/Priests and Intelligence/Mages. But if you are planning to implement save penalties, I think it might be more balanced to have something like:

Cha/Int/Wis: 9 +2 to save
Cha/Int/Wis: 10 +1 to save
Cha/Int/Wis: 17 -1 to save
Cha/Int/Wis: 19+ -2 to save

I made up the numbers so you can find a better scoring, but something like this looks more balanced to me.

Also, if you are planning to implement this for all spell casters, is it possible for you to make it in separate components so that I am able to pick only the component that affects Charisma/Sorcerers?

Grammarsalad

subtledoctor said:

How are you going to code that? Just as an aura?

I would tone it down... something like,
17 = -1 save penalty
19 = -2 penalty
21 = -3 penalty

Basically like this:

https://github.com/Grammarsalad/Proficiencies/blob/master/proficiency/lib/heal.tpa

326 effects that target self (but that target 'creature' etc. in the header) will cast a spell on the target creature based on the stats of the caster. In the above link, the spell temporarily modifies certain stats of the target based on the stats of the caster, and then casts a spell that affects the target differently based on those modified stats. let me know if that doesn't make sense.

Edit: Yes, that's like 700 lines 1700 for what ultimately is one spell (and looking back at it, I don't think I quite finished it!) LIE!. And, yeah, it could be more efficient. It was my first attempt at a new way of doing things.

edit2: So, here, basically as the first effect I'll modify a stat based on the charisma of the caster (via 326) for like 1 second. And, if the caster is (e.g.) a sorcerer, they will cast as the second spell (again, by 326) that modifies the saves of the target based on the first alteration(agaion, for 1 sec--long enough to modify the save for the base spell).

edit3: this is the spell description:
https://github.com/Grammarsalad/Proficiencies/blob/master/proficiency/tra/english/prof.tra#L516

Anyway, yeah, I'll tone it down

Grammarsalad

Ludwig_II said:

Thanks for the replies guys.

Grammersalad, what you propose sounds cool but overpowered. I was thinking more like granting a few bonus spells (either to number of learned spells, or to number of castings for a few spell levels) just like how it is now for Wisdom/Priests and Intelligence/Mages. But if you are planning to implement save penalties, I think it might be more balanced to have something like:

Cha/Int/Wis: 9 +2 to save
Cha/Int/Wis: 10 +1 to save
Cha/Int/Wis: 17 -1 to save
Cha/Int/Wis: 19+ -2 to save

I made up the numbers so you can find a better scoring, but something like this looks more balanced to me.

Also, if you are planning to implement this for all spell casters, is it possible for you to make it in separate components so that I am able to pick only the component that affects Charisma/Sorcerers?

Oh, yes. Sorry if that wasn't clear: each combo will be a different component.

Also, to be clear, it looks like you can get bonus slots for high charisma already:

https://github.com/subtledoctor/TomeAndBlood/releases

Ulb

While you're at it, how about a charisma bonus to turn undead for clerics/paladins?
Paladins have a high charisma requirement but AFAIK gain nothing from it..

Maybe +1 turn undead level for every point of charisma above 17?

Grammarsalad

Ulb said:

While you're at it, how about a charisma bonus to turn undead for clerics/paladins?
Paladins have a high charisma requirement but AFAIK gain nothing from it..

Maybe +1 turn undead level for every point of charisma above 17?

Excellent idea! Done

Notes found here:
https://github.com/Grammarsalad/Casting_Attributes/issues/1

Ulb

Well, that was fast!
Thanks, gonna include that in my next install for sure.

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Ludwig_II

Awesome! It was always bothering me that the main attribute was still a dump stat for sorcerers. Well, it won't be anymore.

Thank you so much Grammarsalad. And yeah Charisma/Paladin idea is great too.

Grammarsalad

Ulb said:

Well, that was fast!
Thanks, gonna include that in my next install for sure.

Lol, I meant that it's on the list, not that it's actually done. Sorry if what I said was misleading.. But shouldn't take long. I should have something by next weekend. I have all the parts I need. It's just a matter of putting them in place

Raduziel

Be careful. TU bonus is a HUGE thing and can be gamebreaking.

Ulb

@Grammarsalad No pressure, looking forward to it.

Subtledoctor and Raduziel are probably right in that it is quite easy to push stats and the bonus might be too high. I almost never use stat buff potions myself and have 3.5 stat bonuses as much as possible, so I tend to forget how easy it is to get 20+ in pretty much any stat with normal potions.

I see no problem for paladins (since they only have half their level by default) but with priest in the mix it might be wise to cap the bonus to +3 levels or something like that.

Mythalar

subtledoctor said:

How are you going to code that? Just as an aura?

I would tone it down... something like,
17 = -1 save penalty
19 = -2 penalty
21 = -3 penalty

Something like that would be nice, not saying anything about numbers but I think it's more useful to have a save penalty than too many spells since at high level the saves are really rarely failed

Ammar

I think a save penalty is too powerful, the game is not balanced for that.

If you combine it with the specialization bonus it gets overpowered very soon. A 19 Int Enchanter would have enemies save against Chaos with a -8 penalty.

Having charisma determine the maximum spell level a Sorcerer can learn is enough for me.

Grammarsalad

Ammar said:

I think a save penalty is too powerful, the game is not balanced for that.

If you combine it with the specialization bonus it gets overpowered very soon. A 19 Int Enchanter would have enemies save against Chaos with a -8 penalty.

Having charisma determine the maximum spell level a Sorcerer can learn is enough for me.

I hear ya. the bonus isn't going to be that high anymore. It's going to be more like this(don't know how to create a table):

Attribute Value Save modification
9 or less +2
10 to 11 +1
12 to 16 +0
17 to 19 -1
20 to 22 -2
23+ -3

I'll probably also bump the friends spell up to second level.

Informally, I can't think of a way to limit max spell level by charisma in any stable way. I'm also thinking of having a 'creature of magic' hla that heals the sorcerer by a bit whenever they cast a spell (have to figure out how to create custom spell states for that, though)

Grammarsalad

First release.  Only the turn undead bonus based on charisma for now.  There is definitely a path to granting bonuses to 'spell strength' based on charisma, but doing it in a way that minimizes install time--i.e. less than a 5 hour install time--will take time.  

Anyway, this should be pretty stable @Ulb

Ulb

..about time you finally delivered!

Seriously though, very cool.. will check that out in my next install.

Holic

Hi @Ludwig_II . You can try my DND 3.5 mod https://github.com/Holic75/Baldurs-gate-dnd-3.5/releases .

It generally tries to replace the AD&D rules with those of DND 3.5 (including stat based spell DC and bonus spells for all spellcasting classes).

Ludwig_II

Thanks for this Holic. I generally stay away from big rule changes, though your mod seems very comprehensive and coherent. Looks quite cool. I will definitely try it.