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A quick question on the Use Any Item High Level Thief Ability.

Ok, so, yes, I know that it let's you use any item, but does it negate the penalties of using said item? I mean, if you slap a set of full plate mail on, can you still use your thieving skills while wearing it? Dumb question I know, but sometimes you just gotta ask'em.

Comments

  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 190
    With full plate mail you can use traps and find traps/remove illusions but you can’t hide in shadows, remove traps or open locks.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • deathgeonousdeathgeonous Member Posts: 50
    I thought so. You see, I was planning another run through the trilogy, and then I remembered the old complaint, 'The only thing missing from the Good Party, is a Thief,' Now, I'll dispute that just a bit. It's not missing a thief, it's missing a thief of high levels. After Spellhold and you get Imoen back, and thus losing Yoshi if you had him, You're stuck with at most, a level 7 Thief. Now, Imoen is somewhat good at what she does, and can cheat like a mofo with spells and potions, but... yeah, after Spellhold the 'Good Party' loses access to high level thieving abilities. This leads to one option... YOU! Now for my first run-through of this game oh so many years ago, I played a FMT. Sure, I never got 9th level spells, and was a second stringer all around, but I covered the thieving part pat and never knew just how much the party really needed that until much later on in a different run-through. So that leads me to this run-through of the game. I was thinking, 'Ok, I need a Thief that levels past Spellhold. The average experience you are at at Spellold is about 1,250,000. Hey! That's Fighter Level 13! Ok, so, get to Fighter Level 13, and then it's 880,000?!?!? experience until Thief Level 14! Sweet! That's 2,130,000 experience! Well before I face Jonny-Boy! Ok, so, Now for the Fighter Kit.... Wait a minuet..., Use Any Item would negate the item penalties that Kensai has, right... yep looks like it! And I'd get that at Thief Level 18, just four more levels! So, a Kensai Level 13, Thief... well damn, Thief Level 39? Sounds ok. And it'll let me slap on Magic Armor and items and stuff. Sweet.' That is what went through my twisted mind while thinking up my protagonist for this run-through. My only semi-questions was if I wear Plate Armor, do I lose the ability to Thieve. I thought I would and I do do so. Oh well. Now my options seem to be either the Aslyferund Elven Chain, sure it has thieving penalties, but it's immune to non-magical weapons. Sure, that's not a lot of enemies, but it helps for those who are, +AC0. Or the one I'm more leaning towards, the Grandmaster's Armor. Can you say, ZOOM-ZOOM!!! I knew you could. And AC1 ain't too bad.

    _Nightfall_
  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 190
    edited January 30
    Kensai>Thief is my second favorite Kensai build after Kensai>Druid. Second favorite because Swasbuckler is very comparable to the Kensai>Thief without the incredibly long wait to wear armor and the end AC on a Swashbuckler almost seems unreal.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,627
    I thought so. You see, I was planning another run through the trilogy, and then I remembered the old complaint, 'The only thing missing from the Good Party, is a Thief,' Now, I'll dispute that just a bit. It's not missing a thief, it's missing a thief of high levels. After Spellhold and you get Imoen back, and thus losing Yoshi if you had him, You're stuck with at most, a level 7 Thief. Now, Imoen is somewhat good at what she does, and can cheat like a mofo with spells and potions, but... yeah, after Spellhold the 'Good Party' loses access to high level thieving abilities. This leads to one option... YOU! Now for my first run-through of this game oh so many years ago, I played a FMT. Sure, I never got 9th level spells, and was a second stringer all around, but I covered the thieving part pat and never knew just how much the party really needed that until much later on in a different run-through. So that leads me to this run-through of the game. I was thinking, 'Ok, I need a Thief that levels past Spellhold. The average experience you are at at Spellold is about 1,250,000. Hey! That's Fighter Level 13! Ok, so, get to Fighter Level 13, and then it's 880,000?!?!? experience until Thief Level 14! Sweet! That's 2,130,000 experience! Well before I face Jonny-Boy! Ok, so, Now for the Fighter Kit.... Wait a minuet..., Use Any Item would negate the item penalties that Kensai has, right... yep looks like it! And I'd get that at Thief Level 18, just four more levels! So, a Kensai Level 13, Thief... well damn, Thief Level 39? Sounds ok. And it'll let me slap on Magic Armor and items and stuff. Sweet.' That is what went through my twisted mind while thinking up my protagonist for this run-through. My only semi-questions was if I wear Plate Armor, do I lose the ability to Thieve. I thought I would and I do do so. Oh well. Now my options seem to be either the Aslyferund Elven Chain, sure it has thieving penalties, but it's immune to non-magical weapons. Sure, that's not a lot of enemies, but it helps for those who are, +AC0. Or the one I'm more leaning towards, the Grandmaster's Armor. Can you say, ZOOM-ZOOM!!! I knew you could. And AC1 ain't too bad.
    the best AC armor you can wear and still keep thief abilities is actually the white dragon armor from watcher's keep ( same AC as full plate +3 just not as good at the armor modifiers )

    but unfortunately there is a slight "flaw" in this characters build; if you dual at level 13 fighter, and go into a thief, that thief class will need to hit 3 080 000 XP before you get your first high level ability which technically means you will have to be at 4 330 000 XP before you get your first high level ability

    this is one of the drawbacks about dual classing because how HLAs work for dual class characters is that you still have to wait until you hit the 3 million+ mark before you can get your HLAs, so that is something to consider

    if you can't wait that long, why not just play a swashbuckler instead? you get thief abilities right at level 1 and keep them all the way to level 40, and every 5 levels you get that +1 to hit/to damage/AC with another +1 bonus to AC at level 1

    granted your weapon choices aren't much if you want attacks per round ( you basically have to use scarlet ninto-jo and belm for some APR ) but you will have great AC, your to hit should be pretty good, and your to damage will also be pretty good

  • deathgeonousdeathgeonous Member Posts: 50
    Well, yeah, but 5 pips in long sword and bastard sword. You can go either flametonge and the answerer or, because of use any item, foebane and purifier.

  • deathgeonousdeathgeonous Member Posts: 50
    but unfortunately there is a slight "flaw" in this characters build; if you dual at level 13 fighter, and go into a thief, that thief class will need to hit 3 080 000 XP before you get your first high level ability which technically means you will have to be at 4 330 000 XP before you get your first high level ability

    Seriously? I thought that it was 3,080,000 TOTAL, not that in my second class... but still, like I said above, you gotta think about this as well...

    5 pips in long sword and bastard sword. You can go either flametonge and the answerer or, because of use any item, foebane and purifier.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,627
    by flame tongue do you mean angurvadal? the long sword from ToB?

    and the reason why i was suggesting the swashbuckler was only if you wanted to get your HLA at the 3 million mark and still hitting basically as hard as a kensai/thief would as apposed to waiting until you hit the 4.33 million mark


  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Also worth considering is a lower level dual from berserker. You could even dual at BG1 levels and have a useful fighter with his GMed weapon. You lose a bit on to hit for sure, but gain some uber immunities and have an easier play through I think.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,627
    DreadKhan said:
    Also worth considering is a lower level dual from berserker. You could even dual at BG1 levels and have a useful fighter with his GMed weapon. You lose a bit on to hit for sure, but gain some uber immunities and have an easier play through I think.
    actually, you would lose on a lot of to hit, lets say you did a level 7 berserker to thief, you will be awesome in bg1 when you thief finally surpasses your fighter level, but, when it comes to SoA your to hit isn't going to be all that great, since you are only a level 7 fighter you will eventually have to use the thief thac0 tables and when you start fighting against bosses and harder enemies you are going to have a harder time hitting them

    i recall in the past making many a "thief archers" that were level 7 fighters that dualled over to thief and at max level with the best items and bows and arrows they were hitting around -2 for thac0, which isnt bad for fodder, but anything that actually has some AC you will struggle against, which is especially not good for a melee character ( not too bad if its a ranged character )

  • deathgeonousdeathgeonous Member Posts: 50
    Yep I meant angurvadal. That plus the answerer is awesome. And I do think I'd rather wait the extra time. Even though I first though it'd be Level 14 Thief, get back Kensai and Level 18 Thief get Use any Item, Level 24 Thief isn't THAT bad. Sure, it's equivalent to like  a Level 29 1/2 Thief, but... an extra 5.5 levels isn't truly that bad. And if I'm luckier than I deserve, by the time I hit Level 24 as a Thief, I just might be at the point where I get that set of Grandmaster's Armor that I want to wear...

  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 190
    I guess that a Swashbuckler can use Answerer with one less attack per round and two less per round with Improved Haste. For this one I have not yet decided what to do with my last three pips, I may go with longsword.

    Here is from a Swashie that I had but haven't gotten back to in a while. 




    AC, THAC0, damage and number of attacks are all good. It is a matter of preference and I have done Kensai>Thief, but I can't see where it is much better. 1 ten second Improved Haste and I was able to kill all but one of the monsterknights. With Kensai>Thief I would just be getting armor, bracers and HLAs, With Swashi I already have 7 no, 8 HLAs.

     :) I definitely understand playing what you want to play, just pointing out that there is an alternative that is ridiculously powerful. 

  • deathgeonousdeathgeonous Member Posts: 50
    Well, I will have to research this other option, I honestly have NEVER played the Swashbuckler, so.... I'll look into it at least.

  • deathgeonousdeathgeonous Member Posts: 50
    I looked up and at Swashbuckler. Yeah, it's a faster, yet weaker version of what I was planning. I think I'll probably stick with my Kensai/Thief idea, but I'll ponder over it tonight while I finish remodeling my kitchen. Putting in new shelves, which means EVERYTHING is getting moved in some way shape or form around the kitchen and into new homes within said kitchen. The things I do for my mother..... Ah, she's old and let's me live in her house for cheap due to my taking care of her.

    Although... looking at the Swashbuckler did give me an idea... If, and I do stress IF, I was a cheating cheater whom cheats, …… I do wonder what a Kensai13/Swashbuckler39 would be like? I do so wonder...

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,627
    Although... looking at the Swashbuckler did give me an idea... If, and I do stress IF, I was a cheating cheater whom cheats, …… I do wonder what a Kensai13/Swashbuckler39 would be like? I do so wonder...
    it would be impossible, you can only have one class kit, and your class kit has to be the first class, you can't dual into a class kit unless you do some EE keeper shenanigans to make sure you get all the right things

    but speaking about that, there was someone who did a swashbuckler level 25 dualled over to fighter level 26 and it was beast mode ( the HP was a little weak ) but the AC, thac0 and to damage was insane plus you can grand master in any weapon you wish

  • deathgeonousdeathgeonous Member Posts: 50
    I WAS referencing EEKEEPER. That was why I was saying being a 'Cheating cheater whom cheats' I do know that you can do that with it, but I've never done it myself. I've just heard of it being done. deathgeonous is a good boy. And the Swashbuckler then fighter idea... I had it and dismissed it initially, although, question on it and pips. Ok, Swash, 2 pips in long sword, then fighter, then unlock swash, third pip in longsword available then, right?

    And why did that guy wait until level 25 to Duel? That's like 3.3 million. Level 26 of fighter was all the rest of his EXP...

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,627
    when you start getting levels in fighter you can just progress normally as a fighter would, so if you plan on dual wielding it would less wasted putting your points into two weapon style, then when you switch over to fighter, putting the points into the weapon you wish to use, then once the swashbuckler is unlocked you will have all those points in two weapon fighting ( this works well with a swash 10/fighter + sort of build )

    because a level 25 swashbuckler has UAI, +6 bonus to AC, +5 bonus to hit/to damage, and then those fighter levels give him 7 fighter HLA

    indeed, it is not quite practical to do so with a party of 6 since you will need to grind mindlessly to hit that 8 million XP mark to make it work, but if you use some "not so canny" exploits ( like just having your char and a wizard and writing but loads of spells for some hyper huge level advancement ) you can unlock this character before the end of ToB

    i believe the build was more for lol purposes than anything, but the end result was still quite cool none the less

  • deathgeonousdeathgeonous Member Posts: 50
    edited January 31
    Ah, I see. Well we all do some crazy and stupid things for the lols… Just watch Jack Ass, or don't, please, DON'T!!!

    Oh, and I did the Cheating Cheater Math... It's... Ok, if I DID use EEKEEPER to do this, and I went 13Kensai/39Swashbuckler, here's the breakdown of it at Level 40:
    -10 to AC
    +11 to hit and Damage
    -3 Speed Factor
    Kai X4
    Grand Mastery in up to two weapons
    Whirlwind Attack XInfintiy instead of Assassination X1
    Use Any Item!
    A really good base Attack, Loads of HP and some very decent saves that cane be buffed by HLAS...
    All this and MORE!!!

    Um, is it wrong to want to cheat? I mean, it's not like I'm hurting anyone, right?

    Balrog99
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,627
    you can play the game anyway you see fit, i remember using EE keeper to make myself jon irenicus in bg1 blasting off time stop spells with horrid wilting, good times

    StummvonBordwehr
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    You can't go Kensai/Swashbuckler because the game only recognizes one kit per character. You can just add the bonuses for a variety of kits though.
    The problem with that sort of thing is where will you stop?
    +20 bonus to damage?
    How about permanent Critical Strike?
    -40 AC modifier against everything?
    Now that's a kensai. No one can hit you, but you make splitting heads look like it's easy - with a dagger.
    But you are still not strong enough, right?
    So you add Immunity to Time Stop, Level Drain, Imprisonment and Backstabs. Fitting abilities for a child of Bhaal. Right?
    Then you give yourself permanent Greater Whirlwind and Kai, just so these abilities won't feel left out, and top it off by making yourself immune to all spell levels up to and including 9.
    And so on.
    Finally you reach the point where you have to add light effects on your character so that everybody may recognize their awesomeness even at a distance.
    Only to be insulted by the game when scripted events still pretend like you are some stupid mortal.
    Now you'll have to live with the knowledge that Gorion died for naught, because you ran when you could have annihilated Sarevok and cohorts in a single round.
    Imoen was kidnapped because you chose to watch rather than wipe out the cowled wizards along with Irenicus. Khalid only perished because- ah, forget about Khalid. You will be left with the question of whether people should pray to your character or scold her for allowing bad things to happen.

    Cheating is a slippery slope, and it always ends in tragedy.

    subtledoctor
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 695
    But at the end of the slope you will find that its just a game.

    My wet dream is a drow swashbuckler/kensai/dragondisciple multi. Played without level cap and with the “multi fighters can grandmaster” option enabled.

    Yes its daft - but its just a game. Play it how you like it.

    sarevok57BlackravenBalrog99
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    It is a matter of preference and I have done Kensai>Thief, but I can't see where it is much better.

    The primary draw of the Kensai->Thief isn't the AC, the Thac0 or the damage per hit. It's the improved backstabs thanks to the Kensai damage boni and Kai. A Swashbuckler can't backstab at all. And even if you don't care about backstabbing dualling from Kensai even at 7 will give you 1/2 APR plus the bonus APR from weapon specialization - something you don't benefit from if you pick Swashbuckler.

    Balrog99
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,627
    the one thing i find about cheating is that i get bored very quickly

    being completely unstoppable right out of the gate with nothing that can challenge you just bores me, even though i am power gamer extraordinaire, i like to earn my OPness not have it given to me

    even more ironically i like taking weaker type teams and try and power game them as hard as i can just for the lerz

    now adays if i use cheats it is just to add a little flair to the game to keep it interesting; like having a fighter/mage/thief halfling of making an elf that is a cleric/conjurer or priest of lothander/mage or even just changing my sprite to jon irenicus when im a monk ( which is actually amazing because he does indeed have a melee attack with that sprite ) or i will use cheats to unbreak the game aka bugs that i run into that can be fixed with cheats, or if i accidentally messed up on a proficiency or ability i can use EE keeper to quickly fix it

    but to use cheats to make me noticeably stronger than i should be, meh, i try and keep away from that or else i will get bored with the character

    this is also another reason why i MUST roll my stats for every character, any time i use the crt+8 or ee keeper to set my ability scores i pretty much lost interest in that character

    its funny really, but when i play the bg games my bond with my character starts in the ability rolling screen, i MUST earn that roll of 90 or 88 or 95, it was the first step of making that character great, knowing that they will be going out into the world to kick butt, especially if i roll a character for an hour, thats an hour that i invested in that character and it gives me even more motivation to use that character

    if i use cheats to make my character without earning that "possible" roll of 98, there was no investment in that character, there was no pre bond made, even though 5 18s ( or some 19s ) and the one 10 looks cool, but if it wasn't earned then it means nothing to me

    Grond0BlackravenBalrog99
  • deathgeonousdeathgeonous Member Posts: 50
    I was honestly mostly joking. Mainly because as it was said above, it's a slippery slope of where do you stop? That and I honestly wouldn't even know how to use EEKEEPER to do that. Just flip the second class from thief to swashbuckler? And even if that would work I could mess up my game and hours upon hours of play. Not worth it. It was just a little wishful thinking that got away from me and... yeah... I can see how you'd think I was serious but... I've had a bitch of a day. I've been reorganizing my entire kitchen, and I'm still not done yet, I still need to replace a broken shelf. Well a set of broken shevels really. That and a combination of heart burn and constipation mixed with some vomiting due to not being able to shit... I may have to go to the hospital if I don't, well go soon. So yeah, during my free time I let my imagination get the better of me. Sorry.

    That said, while I am Still leaning towards my original idea, the Swashbuckler is beginning to temp me... I have look into that more when I have more time...

    Honestly the main things that my idea has that Swashbuckler doesn't is exceptional strength, grand mastery and I'll get double the attacks. And, while yes, I'm willing to wait for it, because IF I'm right on my timing, then I'd be dueling into thief right about the time I lose Yoshi, and 880,000 exp isn't that long at that point, having the thieving skills since go does appeal to me as well. So, it's now a question of, better fighting abilities, or more thieving abilities. I'll pick my party members and see which way it'll would work out better... and now that I'm thinking of it... if I went Swashbuckler from the start, I wouldn't need to find a rouge to replace Imoen in TOD. I usually use that Gnome Cleric Thief who's name is escaping me at the moment, but if I was a swashbuckler then... damn, that's almost too good an argument right there for swashbuckler...

    Hell with it. Swashbuckler it is. That last thing sealed my fate.

    sarevok57Balrog99
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,627
    one thing to note about the swashbuckler is; if you are not going to dual class you can always be a half orc and start with 19 STR so then you don't have to wait until chapter 5 for the mits of ogre power or chapter 6 for the tome of STR

  • deathgeonousdeathgeonous Member Posts: 50
    True... but I'm thinking Elf honestly. 19 Dex for thieving, and that hit to Con don't matter. Target starting stats are STR 18, DEX 19 CON 15 (The Book gets me to 16 and that's all that's needed) INT 10, Wis 10, and everything else into CHA Whatever, hopefully 15+. That's, let's do the math... a target number of... 87. Total reachable within a few minuets of rolling.

    Also I think I'll go against the conventional wisdom of wielding Scareltt and Whelm. Nope Off Handing Angurvadal (22 STR!) and Main Handing  The Answerer, possibly my very favorite 1handed weapon. I mean look at it's effect! 
    • Each hit lowers the target's Magic Resistance by 15% for 4 rounds (bypass MR, no save)
    • Each hit penalizes the target's Armor Class by 2 for 4 rounds (bypass MR, no save)
    It's broken in my opinion. But I'll take it!

    sarevok57Blackraven
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,627
    edited January 31
    i would actually suggest having 17 CON with your elf and using the tome to increase it to 18 so then your swashbuckler can use the claw of kazgaroth without getting a HP penalty, so then you can get an AC bonus with a great save bonus 

    also, you might not have to wield angurvadal in ToB because if you have starting 18 STR in BG1 use the tome, hit 19, then in SoA hit 21 with the hell trial and then use MoLtM in ToB you will hit 22 STR, so no need for angurvadal unless you want to be immune to level drain with the upgraded version

    BlackravenGrond0StummvonBordwehr
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,353
    If you want a weapon to boost strength, then why not use Crom Faeyr?

  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 190
    I looked up and at Swashbuckler. Yeah, it's a faster, yet weaker version of what I was planning. I think I'll probably stick with my Kensai/Thief idea, but I'll ponder over it tonight while I finish remodeling my kitchen. Putting in new shelves, which means EVERYTHING is getting moved in some way shape or form around the kitchen and into new homes within said kitchen. The things I do for my mother..... Ah, she's old and let's me live in her house for cheap due to my taking care of her.

    Although... looking at the Swashbuckler did give me an idea... If, and I do stress IF, I was a cheating cheater whom cheats, …… I do wonder what a Kensai13/Swashbuckler39 would be like? I do so wonder...


    Nice that you help out your mom. :) Handy as well. Hmmm, how would that look.
    Class: Son
    Kit: Handyman
    Level: 20?
    Weapon proficiencies: Um, Tape measure? Hammer? Pips to be determined?
    Special Abilities: Still has all fingers. 
    HLA: Handyman’s Butt Crack

    Seriously, I think that it is pretty cool that you help your mom. Worthy cause for putting off Baldur’s Gate.

    sarevok57
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,985
    edited February 1
    Start with fighter, dual to thief (level 2 if you don't want to get crazy). Switch to Swashbuckler (using Keeper) and set level to 0. Level up. You'll get Swashie bonuses, keep backstab and get a few bonus points to add to your thief abilities. Pretty sure you can grandmaster too if you want. You are a Bhaalspawn so it's not an inconceivable build IMHO...

    Grond0StummvonBordwehr
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