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Imoen, why is your dexterity 19?

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Comments

  • TraumaDramaTraumaDrama Member Posts: 56
    @StummvonBordwehr You are absolutely right. I'm mixing up my recent playthrough with the old vanilla days. Although back then I was playing heavily modded versions via my gf, so who knows.

    I never finished SoA back in the day, so when I recently replayed BG1 I was in such a rush to jump into BG2 that I didn't even know SoD existed until I was deep into it. I'll circle back around when I finish ToB.

    @DreadKhan She can be frustrating. I was dedicated to her for RP reasons. I also did most of the sidequests before getting her as well, but then I took her and did NPC quests and would boot out the other NPC before collecting XP. Between that, and the Bhaalspawn dexterity boost she got in ToB, she's really grown on me. I like using simulacrum with her and having one version be a mage and the other a backstabber. That being said, I look forward to an evil run with Hexxat so I can finally see these epic traps I've heard so much about.

    @sarevok57 I'll have to weigh those options, thanks.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,654
    edited February 25
    Those traps can be a real game changer, I bet a bounty hunter would have a shot at soloing the game without too much hassles, even many big bosses can be trapped, at least somewhat, and UAI really enables some crazy shenanigans, which the Bounty Hunter might use to get by in the fights where he can't set traps. You can also get a ton of traps with Jan, as he's a multi-class, though you might want some of the mage picks, you don't really need all of them depending on how you use a caster... Imp Alacrity is great, but it's not as great without a buff to your casting speed imho.

    Hexxat is lots of fun though, I accidentally chose Dorn over her for my romance, though Dorn is a pretty interesting romance for the right character. Hexxat has some pretty neat quests, way more than a normal NPC has, so she's a bit of an investment I suppose.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    edited February 28
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    You can also get a ton of traps with Jan, as he's a multi-class, though you might want some of the mage picks, you don't really need all of them depending on how you use a caster... Imp Alacrity is great, but it's not as great without a buff to your casting speed imho.
    a buff to casting speed gives ia its full power, but the robe is there for the purpose and as jan is a scout you usually spot the enemies before they spot you. so you can equip robe and amulet to the mage you plan to use ia for that specific battle, i find that more than one mage using ia in the same moment is overkill in most of the situations. by the way even with only the amulet a mage under ia can unleash an incredible number of magic missiles, melf magic arrows, flame arrows or skull traps while summoning a planetar, is wasted if used for spells that need long casting time, but there are both high level and low level spells that have fast casting time and are really effective, adhw is not always the best option.

    what makes jan the best trap user by far is, strange as it can seem, improved alacrity...
    combined with the use of PI and simulacrum. he as thief and mage can lure almost every enemy that can not see trough invisibility where he wants, how many times he wants if he also has the staff of the magi to disappear at will. and his pi or simulacrum, the latter only at really high level, using ia can spam a lot of traps very fast, without depleting jan's ones. this mean that with the correct party positioning and smart use of the ground features jan can flood the enemies with traps at the cost of some lev 7 an 8 spells.
    the game prevents to have too many traps active in the same area, but if the traps are used nothing prevents to set other ones. with a thief that can appear and disapperar at will to lure the enemy where he wants and can use ia buffed clones to pop out traps at machine gun speed most of the dungeons and even the last battle of the saga can become REALLY easy...
    in this situation also the time trap can become much more useful and synergistic to the whole tactic as it can buy the clone, or jan himself when is not using clones, the time to relocate or to cast ia and clear out what survived the traps carpet and on and over. at top level jan has 3 lev 9 slots so a single pi can be used to set up really fast at least 2 trap carpets and combining regular, skull and hla traps a jan's clone has plenty of trps to use, if robe and amulet are used also the delayed fireballs can be used.

    i already created the topic superaerie to collect the power tactics and spell combinations that she can use, probably someone should create the superjan thread cause he probably can be even more powerful and use even more fun and interesting non standard tactics.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,654
    huh, never thought of using Imp Alacrity to set lots of traps ASAP. Makes me fantasize about a solo Bounty Hunter/Mage dual, or maybe a modded multi-class.

    That said, all the cheese may lead to a cholesterol problem! ;)

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    She can be frustrating. I was dedicated to her for RP reasons. I also did most of the sidequests before getting her as well, but then I took her and did NPC quests and would boot out the other NPC before collecting XP............. I like using simulacrum with her and having one version be a mage and the other a backstabber.
    if you plan in the future to take imoen with yourself without rushing to rescue her it can be really useful to don't get the reward for chap 2 quests immediately if you don't need them for other reasons. when you are back in town with her in the party you can trigger the rewards and also she will benefit of it. this mean to go to the asylum with a less experienced party, but the kills xp should be enough to let the party go trough the underdark as you are not rushing to it. the reward is that as soon as you come back to amn imoen catch up by only triggering the rewards trough dialogue.

    about using her clone as backstabber i am not convinced that is so effective, i did try it in the past, both with her and nalia. the main problem is the low backstab multiplier she has and also her lousy thac0 does not help, her clone is a level drained low level thief and at the point of the game when she can cast simulacrum even using the clone as a level drained secondary mage is imho much more effective as both the original and the clone can benefit of rov and aop to cast fast. at really high level both can do it while under improved alacrity, before the simulacrum, after casting its 1 spell/round, is probably more effective with a sling if she equips the best sling and bullets and, very important, the best str enhancer, at the moment she creates the clone. the hasted clone has 2 apr, stacks the thac0 buff from launcher and bullet to actually hit things and stacks the dmg buff of launcher, bullet and str bonus to hit hard, maybe not as a real fighter, but hard enough to matter, while in a safe position and also acting as secondary mage.

    i did not try to use tensor transformation on the clone and send him to backstab, maybe it works and the clone can liberally use invisibility and other potions without wasting them, maybe with a high damaging backstabbing weapon it can make a difference, and if the clone also has a bbod scroll in a quick slot even better. and surely an imoen simulacrum with the black blade od and kundane in the off hand, improved hasted, under tensor's transformation and using one or more time stop scrolls from quick slot can do some serious damage. i am not telling that imoen's simulacrum can not backstab effectively, i am only telling that to pull out effectiveness something more than the plain casting of simulacrum must be used, it is a time consuming buff even if it can be really rewarding. also mislead can be used as an alternative to the time stop scrolls depending on the situation.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    DreadKhan wrote: »

    That said, all the cheese may lead to a cholesterol problem! ;)
    no cheese imo. ia overrides the 1 magic action/round limit with the only exception of using an item to perform it (wand, scroll, potion) and this is clearly intended, it works also for hla, a thief or bard can create multiple potions, a fighter can activate multiple hla, like critical strike and gww in the same round.
    surely it is powerful, but ia is a top level spell and is as powerful when used to cast multiple spells.
    so no exploit, no cheese at all, only a not conventional use of a spell that is op in itself, not conventional but well in the boundaries of what is intended for it.

    also the rest is not cheese but only god rogue tactics, set traps, lure enemies into them and repeat.
    maybe, but imo is not so, the only cheesy part is to use a clone to set traps.

    what is cheesy is what many players do, set traps on spots where enemies are going to spawn or before triggering a dialogue that makes the enemies hostile. that is cheese, that is exploiting meta knowledge you have but your party is not supposed to have or the mechanics that make possible to set traps in front of a dragon without him reacting only cause you don't have triggered the dialogue.
    those are cheesy and lame tactics, the one i proposed is only a powerful combination of intended game behavior and smart "rogue magic".

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,654
    I consider it an exploit because AFAIK it is supposed to bypass the restriction specifically on spell casting, and most of those other things it works for it works for because of the way stuff is coded, but it's clearly intended behaviour, and not cheating. I definitely will be keeping this trick in mind. I've used IA for fighter-types, but never for traps! Can Bounty Hunter's still throw traps? because I can see this as pretty funny, machine gunning maze traps. ;)

    Now, I actually don't consider it cheesey to set traps if you are pretty sure an enemy is going to spawn there, or walk over to there. That what traps are for I think, and if I with my marginal stats are pretty sure something is going to show up there, my character that almost certainly has better stats will know it too. *shrug* to each their own!

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 773
    @gorgonzola Unfortunately the game expects you to use meta knowledge in certain instances. SCS even more so. If that is how the game is set up, it gets hard to decide which preparations count as cheese, and which ones are just required.

    DreadKhan
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    i don't play SCS and maybe there some meta knowledge is really needed. when i was talking of lame tactics i was talking of vanilla.
    i don't play SCS, but i play tactics mod and also there it seems that some meta knowledge is mandatory still i am able to beat it without prebuffing if there is not an in game clue that i have to do so. i also appreciate how tactics make some low level enemies spawn a little before the real ones do they suck the damage of traps, it compels you to use smart tactics instead of meta knowledge if you want to use traps.

    that told i am well aware that the knowledge and ability of the player is really relevant when talking about things like cheese, meta knowledge and fair or lame tactics. now i can easily beat dragons at low level and/or soloing in a modded environment while the same lizards was a nightmare in vanilla ad with a well leveled full party when i was learning how to play.
    i don't want to be judgmental about the style of other players and i know that for the same battle a novice has to "help" himself in some way, an intermediate player does not need it and an advanced one need to nerf his party and/or mod the game harder other way it gets too easy.

    let's say that in my personal style of playing i prefer to lower the difficulty if i am not up to the situation than use meta knowledge to pre buff or to set traps. this is also the reason why i don't seek super stats for charname and i don't use the maximum hp gain on leveling up. and that maybe 30% less hp my party has compared to one with maxed hp really makes a difference in some hard modded battles.

    in the end this game is just a game, as long as someone is having fun the way he plays it there is nothing wrong in whatever choice is used.
    still i am convinced that in many situations, even in a modded game (but again i don't play scs), the use of meta knowledge is only a shortcut that allows a player to win in a game setting he is still not enough proficient to play in a completely fair way.

    DreadKhan
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    I consider it an exploit because AFAIK it is supposed to bypass the restriction specifically on spell casting, and most of those other things it works for it works for because of the way stuff is coded, but it's clearly intended behaviour, and not cheating. I definitely will be keeping this trick in mind. I've used IA for fighter-types, but never for traps! Can Bounty Hunter's still throw traps?
    we should be able to read inside the minds of original and EE developers to know if it is intended or not...
    but as you use it for fighter types why not for rogue ones? :)
    i assume that it is not an exploit cause it works on every magic action that does not involve the use of a physical component, activating rogue and fighter hla, scribe scrolls, alchemy, bhaal's powers and setting traps, but i am only assuming it.

    about bounty hunters i never had a bounty hunter->mage to test it, maybe i can create one with EE keeper to test it if you are really interested, but if you don't play on android i suppose is something you can easily do by yourself.

    DreadKhan
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,654
    edited February 28
    Oh, I think I'll be using it actually, I just might feel a bit weird doing it. I'm not all that great at BG2, I'm clearly better at BG1 (which I've soloed with a everything but a Druid and Shaman, but I've done it with a party with both, and am firmly convinced I have no clue what to do with a Shaman, or if it's any good lol), where things are simpler and the mages much easier to kill off.

    I try not to heavily use the stuff I hate that the computer uses, so my under-utilization of Contingencies and Triggers really limits my magic users. I really need to do a sorcerer solo of BG2 just to get competent at that game, but I'm not looking forward to dealing with traps. Regarding traps, the computer uses a crap-ton, and in places where they don't make much sense sometimes (IE magical traps are everywhere, but are supposed to be pretty expensive I thought), so I don't mind getting a bit cheesey with traps. I even try to set traps for dragons, which backfired a bit vs Saladrex (sp?) in WK, since he doesn't like you Spike Trapping his feet, even if you flattered him, so he went hostile on Hexxat, while the party was at the damn entrance! Still clobbered him though.

    I actually used traps vs Draconis, and led him to his death. Sucker!

    Edit: Yeah, I'm a PC user mostly, so I can keeper if I need to. I find I keeper way more than when I started, mostly to make the game less annoying at times (IE I lost a characters gear in a hard battle, so I just saved and keepered it all back rather than live without it. I remember playing IWD and spending probably 2 solid hours grinding with a solo character because I changed my mind mid-playthrough about what characters I wanted to use in the party, and didn't want to 'cheat' by giving the new character free XP. I **** you not, Cold Wights are like free XP for a competent fighter, or a fighter dual. I later found out you could kill the mage merchant in HoF for huge XP, but you need to kill him pretty fast I think. I used him later, and literally spent more time loading the stupid game than actually playing. My ignorant youth staggers my more mature impatience.

    gorgonzola
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 63
    I have never done a run without Imoen, when push comes to shove I just can’t leave her out for RP reasons

    gorgonzolaThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    edited February 28
    rp wise to leave her in the labyrinth telling her "find your way home alone" is a complete nonsense, even for a true evil charname. if you care for her why do you leave her in such a dangerous place and desperate situation? and if you don't care for her why are you there at all? the whole purpose to come there is to save her...
    but if you decide to bring her with you until bodhi is defeated and her soul restored i fail to see a rp reason to keep her with me. i see reasons to tell her "girl, now you are fine and safe, let's split, find a good place and live your life".
    i have a sister in rl, but surely i don't take her with me every single thing i do, surely i did not when i was younger and did those dangerous solo rock climbing without rope, thing that is probably less dangerous than fighting dragons, mind flyers and drows like charname does (with the little difference that in rl you are always playing no reload :D )
    also i don't want her with me cause she proved me that she is an idiot
    did you watch the cut scene out of irenicus dungeon? attacking a mage of that power being at a fairly low level and with a magic missile? :o :s :#
    only an impulsive idiot can do such a stupid thing, and bringing with me her i put the whole party at risk.
    don't get me wrong imoen lovers, also i love her, but rp wise what i told in the spoiler is sound.


  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,654
    Technically, your PC could care not at all about Imoen, and just chase Irenicus and tell Imoen to sod off when you meet up again, the dialogues are even there for it in game.

    I think most good PCs should bring here though, and even Korgan gave me a hard time when I was gonna ditch her.

    gorgonzolaGrond0
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    edited March 1
    i am not convinced that an evil charname has all those reasons to chase irenicus.
    he was captured by him, is true, but was lucky and could escape with no damage but the loosing of some equipment. and as far as he knows irenicus is really dangerous, as he prooved in the cutscene of his arrest, but is now in prison, guarded by the most powerful magic people of amn, the cw, maybe only a truly chaotic evil one would face all the problems of getting to him for a revenge. he has to spend a lot of time and money, go against the most powerful thieves guild or against powerful vampires and then risk the revenge of the cowed wizards that would probably not bee so pleased if someone breaks in their prison, kill their members and the prisoners, then risk his own life against the mage. the offence he had from irenicus so far hardly justify all that.
    obviously charname has to go as the game has to progress, but rp wise there are so many reason to not go for an evil one that does not care of imoen, that is only a girl that lived in candlekeep but not important for his life, as he decides to leave her in the dungeon.
    no rp reasons related to her being bhaal child or his sister at that point, he is completely not aware of the fact

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 773
    edited March 1
    @gorgonzola I think it is the lawful-evil that would hunt him down for revenge - out of principle.
    CE might just shrug her shoulders and say it's too much work and doesn't seem to come with any real benefits.
    But then, there are always ways for you to construct "reasons". He spoke of hidden power as he tortured you, and your dreams can be interpreted to mean that this matter does occupy your mind.
    But even if neither revenge nor power matter to you, you must remember that he kidnapped you before. He has an interest in you specifically. If he manages to break out of his prison, you will find out when you wake up in a cell in another underground laboratory. (ironically, while this is what your character can expect to happen prior traveling to Brynnlaw, when your character takes the initiative and goes to Spellhold, it ends up happening anyway)

    DreadKhanThacoBellgorgonzola
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,654
    Erm, iirc Irenicus literally tortures you for months, I think anybody not overwhelmingly pacifistic would be interested in revenge, even if you weren't interested in all his talk about power.

    ThacoBellTraumaDrama
  • TraumaDramaTraumaDrama Member Posts: 56
    Yeah, evil or no, I'm coming for the big payback.

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