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Ust Natha or Just Nasty?

Just arrived at Ust Natha after clearing out the Kuo-Ta tunnels, Beholder lair, and Ith city. I've finished all the quests in the main Underdark map, and now entering Ust Natha.

I'm wondering if / when / how I should kill everything in the city, it being total evil Drow and all? I know there's probably quests and stuff in there. And if I genocide everything, will there be any consequences afterwards, or later on in the game?

Is it gonna be Just Nasty?

Skatan
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Comments

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    Without mods, you can easily kill all the drow (ideally after finishing the quest line + subquests and finishing your shopping).
    There will be no repercussions further down the line.

    gorgonzola
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,403
    Just roleplay it. You are after all literally going in "undercover" so it's entirely up to you when you decide to break cover (bearing in mind of course that your primary goal is to pursue the bad guys - and that means that you have to have an exit strategy in place first).

    gorgonzola
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    I can justify several RP reasons for wiping out Ust Natha.

    1) Good party is expected to wipe out evil if the opportunity presents itself.

    2) Evil party can massacre the Drow for the evil LOL's and to be more evil than the Drow.

    3) Wiping out Ust Natha would benefit the surface. Fewer Drow around to cause trouble.

    4) Undercover yes, then "assassinate" a whole city. Or sabotage the enemy by taking lives and creating chaos. Other Drow cities would probably fight each other to reclaim empty Ust Natha.

    5) Make Adalon's life easier so she can raise her little dragon babies, assuming I successfuly rescue her eggs and return them to her.

    Alonso
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    @Veristek I highly HIGHLY recommend doing the questlines in the city before wiping it out. In my opinion, Ust Natha has the best questline in the game. Engaging the Drow in their own game of espionage and betrayal is so incredibly satisfying when you come out on top. Also, not all Drow worship Lolth. They are rarer, but indiscriminate killing might take a few innocents as well.

    gorgonzolailduderinoStummvonBordwehrlolien
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    I'm not planning on skipping the quests. Just trying to figure out how to wipe them all out at the right time or strategy. It's certainly interesting to see how an evil city / society operates.but I gotta ask, what's a mind reading fish doing in a tank in an underground cavern city?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,448
    wait until the last possible moment, you will know when you will be at that point.

    be careful about to find all the side quests.

    ThacoBell
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 128
    At the very least buy the dagger Firetooth before sending everyone hostile

  • BlomdorBlomdor Member Posts: 26
    I also would very strongly recommend taking the time to explore the city, check out the merchants, and complete the various quests to be found there. On the practical side, it's worth a good deal of experience and nets you some decent loot. Aside from that, it introduces you to a couple of interesting characters, and the main line of quests can be approached in multiple ways depending on just whose side you decide to be on; as @ThacoBell hinted at, if you maintain your disguise and the facade of servitude, the end result can potentially be more satisfying than simply walking in and killing everything in sight.

    lolien
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    Just finished Ust Natha. I did do everything in there, quests, shopping, stealing, etc.

    After getting the eggs, the alarm sounded and the whole city turned hostile. I was ready for epic battles to fight my way out and exterminate everything in the city. Then once I left the temple, things got pretty lackluster. Only 1 - 2 drow attacked me at a time at a few places as I cleared the whole city. The biggest fight was in the shopping area when the merchants were joined by the genie torturers. And that was it for a "big" battle. I was expecting to fight through like 100+ Drow instead of only 15 - 20. It's a supposed to be a city full of evil elves that breed like rabbits

    And I'd have liked to heat that fish tank to boil that mind fish alive, or crack that tank and let the water leak out, making it a slow death for the bastard. No Drow around to fix the tank. But sadly, no way to kill it.

    Made my way to the dragon, fought through a ruined temple, sold all the Drow gear for about 25k total gold at the gnome merchant, went back to the temple, and ready to start Chapter 6.

    Angulimalalolien
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    "And I'd have liked to heat that fish tank to boil that mind fish alive, or crack that tank and let the water leak out, making it a slow death for the bastard. No Drow around to fix the tank. But sadly, no way to kill it."

    Okay, who let the chaotic evil guy into the city!?

    Alonsololien
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 573
    The "proper" wsy to feel like you're challenging a whole city is to do it with SCS. It's appropriately difficult, i.e. near-impossible.
    It is a hard fight in SCS. Actually Semiticgod from this forum did in LoB mode and with SCS (without reloading):
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/64504/scs-siege-of-ust-natha-in-legacy-of-bhaal-mode.
    If the challenge seems too minor to bother with, its always possible to increase the difficulty a bit..

    Alonsololien
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,701
    The "proper" wsy to feel like you're challenging a whole city is to do it with SCS. It's appropriately difficult, i.e. near-impossible.

    It should be impossible, probably until you're what, late ToB to be that powerful, unless you're a mage... but the Drow generally have lots of high powered spellcasters, so I've always thought there was lots and lots of people in the city who just don't see any point in killing you. If you destabilize the city, plenty of houses (any not in a powerful position already) would be happy with you I'd think, and be quite willing to look the other way when you left... to say nothing of the absurdity of wave after wave of people charging to their deaths. Drow are supposed to be smarter than average humans as a rule, and the society is very hard on those that aren't smart, and they aren't likely to live, so yeah, I always assume I'm just killing off a bunch of Drow, not the whole city.
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    "And I'd have liked to heat that fish tank to boil that mind fish alive, or crack that tank and let the water leak out, making it a slow death for the bastard. No Drow around to fix the tank. But sadly, no way to kill it."

    Okay, who let the chaotic evil guy into the city!?

    That 'fish' is incredibly evil, and not only enslaves beings, it transforms them horribly. It really deserves to be chunked more than most creatures in BG2. I kinda assume the tank is ultra-durable or something, there is certainly plenty of magic in the Underdark.

    lolien
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    While I was clearing the city, Drow commoners walking around actually charge at me to fight. So did the elderly storytellers, the three "jailed" DeVir Drow, tavern patrons, and Drow sex / lust / massage people, they all charged and combated me in the tavern. If it was in Athkatha, Baldur Gate, Nashekl, etc. these people would actually be fleeing for the doors instead of suicidal combat.

    Alonso
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    @DreadKhan Doesn't excuse torture, which slowly draining the tank or slowly boiling it would defnitely qualify for. Remember, "Saving a town from an orc horde by breaking a dam is a good act. Drowning each orc individually is an alignment check."

    StummvonBordwehrsubtledoctor
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 131
    The way I see it, just because it's an evil city doesn't necessarily mean my party has to behave in an evil manner. I always buy and free the slaves, work with Mr. S, and I have zero problem with the double double cross, but attacking people just because they are evil aligned seems just as evil. It's the same reason I don't attempt to wipe out the Sahuagin city at the end of that chapter.

    I suppose that at the end the whole city turns on you, so they are legit red circles, not blue. I dunno - I've never attempted to cleanse the city of Drow in a play through. I just leave and go next door.

    gorgonzolaThacoBelllolien
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,448
    @Maurvir
    i did and it is surprisingly easy to do.
    but the fact that the whole city population turns red is not a clue that the party is entitled to kill them and that it is not an evil choice.
    also the shop keepers and amn people turns red if you fail to pick pocket, but killing them just cause they are red cost you reputation as is an evil choice.

    there can be other rp reasons to regard to kill the whole drow city population as not evil, as a player is free to rp as he likes and we have different opinions about it, but the fact that a person has a red circle is not a reason to consider the killing legit or not evil in this game.

    dunbar
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 91
    I don't suppose rangers can choose Drow as racial enemy? :)

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,701
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @DreadKhan Doesn't excuse torture, which slowly draining the tank or slowly boiling it would defnitely qualify for. Remember, "Saving a town from an orc horde by breaking a dam is a good act. Drowning each orc individually is an alignment check."

    I'm not sure I agree with that, you're literally doing exactly the same thing both times, drowning a bunch of orcs. It's going to be much harder psychologically to drown them individually, but you're drowning them in both cases. I think if one would be evil, breaking the dam is actually the worse, as the dam breaking will likely be killing plants and animals, if not also affecting things like crop land.

    I agree btw that torture is as a rule evil. That's why say kill the fish, and didn't say to torture him.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @DreadKhan Doesn't excuse torture, which slowly draining the tank or slowly boiling it would defnitely qualify for. Remember, "Saving a town from an orc horde by breaking a dam is a good act. Drowning each orc individually is an alignment check."

    I'm not sure I agree with that, you're literally doing exactly the same thing both times, drowning a bunch of orcs. It's going to be much harder psychologically to drown them individually, but you're drowning them in both cases. I think if one would be evil, breaking the dam is actually the worse, as the dam breaking will likely be killing plants and animals, if not also affecting things like crop land.

    I agree btw that torture is as a rule evil. That's why say kill the fish, and didn't say to torture him.

    It comes back to intent. Your goal isn't to drown orcs, its to defend a town. If you could negotiate the orcs to leave in peace, you would. But they greatly outnumber you, so you can't just fight them normally.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @DreadKhan Unfortunately we are playing a video game, so only the action can really be measured. But really, alignment is about intent, not action.
    A person who desires to torture and murder another person and fantasizes about it every day yet never acts upon those urges because of fear of Law Enforcement is not of neutral alignment. That is clearly evil.

    I think we just had a lengthy argument on this in a different thread.

    ThacoBellgorgonzola
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    A few counter-points.

    1) Every Drow killed in Ust Natha means fewer surface people are enslaved or killed. If the one Drow you spare goes on to kill 10 humans or elves later. Would it be considered evil to allow that one Drow to live and 10 people die in malice because of it? Or would killing that malevolent Drow be considered a Good act by preventing 10 murders that he would have done if spared?

    2) Some people believe in torture, while others are completely against it. For example, people would accept torture of a mass-murderer, cannibal, serial rapist, or child torturer more readily than they would accept torture of a police officer, cookie baking grandmother, or children.

    3) In-game, the Abeloth (mind fish) asks you to kill a priestess for her brain. If you don't, the fish alerts the city. You would be murdering the priestess and her guards, or murdering everyone in the city that chases you after the fish sets off the alarm. You'd have to murder your way to the temple, kill everyone in there, grab the eggs, and then back out to Adalon the dragon. You'd be killing Drow either way.

    4) Assuming you do kill every Drow in the city, then the Abeloth fish would be all alone. It would have nobody to feed it brains or other sustenance, being stuck in that fish tank. Leads to death by starvation. It's a slow death, likely agonizing as your body tries to digest itself for nutrients to stay alive. Death by boiling water or drained fish tank is a quicker death than death by starvation.

    DreadKhan
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    @Veristek Less horrible is still horrible. Whether by boiling or strarving, both are evil actions.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,701
    @ThacoBell In the example you gave, I assumed that in both cases the orcs were killed to defend a village, being drowned enmass in one case, and individually in the other. I agree that killing things for pleasure is 100% evil.

    Incidentally, I don't think you can by definition negotiate with orcs in any meaningful way, they're CE and will only keep a treaty if you literally hold the hammer of doom over their heads.

    @Humanoid_Taifun I largely disagree, actual actions I think are more important than intent. By your logic, the ends justify the means, and I am very uncomfortable with that. Also by your logic, evil fantasy has no evil intent, thus making it not evil, as you aren't actually acting in a literal sense, unless you actually count thought as action (like the Bible does). That said, I agree that evil fantasies are unhealthy, and eventually turn someone more evil, ie should probably move alignment.

    I think the big question, which is hard to answer is how does one deal fairly with evil, and are beings capable of being redeemed. If you ignore the Drow (ie don't kill them), they will continue to gain power, until they can freely kill/enslave you and or others, some of whom might be classified as 'innocent'. The real problem I have with trying to be good to evil people is that they will abuse the situation as much as they want, while the good folk are essentially sheep/victims in this case. My faith dictates strict pacifism, but I know when I let people abuse me, the situation consistently worsens, and the Drow are much worse than a man assaulting you on the street at night. Regarding redemption, it gets strange and theoretical, since in theory every Drow could drop their racism and start worshipping Eilistraee, yet this is so counter-intuitive as to be laughable imho, but shouldn't a good person support trying to do the impossible over killing all the Drow?

    This brings us to a second issue, is it evil to treat evil poorly? I definitely feel pacifism is 'more good', but I don't think self defense is evil, and the Drow are very racist remember, considering everyone else fair game. If you take them at their actions, it is arguably self-preservation to destroy them, because they are an active threat. Still, killing those exact same Drow is probably evil if you do it for fun, engage in torture/atrocities, etc, even if you claimed self defense.

    You know, I think there might be an argument out there that self defense is pretty much neutral, and believe it or not, the rules support it kinda, as animals are usually classified as neutral, and animals do not in most cases kill for fun, and many animals will kill things, including people, if they are perceived as a threat. How is it less evil for a bear to maul someone to death for entering their territory (and are seen as a threat) vs killing a bandit trying to kill you? I mean, technically unless you're a creationist, you probably consider humans a type of animal anyways.

    gorgonzola
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @Veristek
    1) It is a society that is in perpetual war with yours. I do not think that killing the inhabitants of the city is necessarily an evil act. Remember though, that enjoying the killing would be evil.

    2) Same as above. If your character hates torture but employs it for specific purposes, that character is not necessarily evil. Using the misdeeds of the victim as a justification for your enjoyment of torture however is almost the most obvious way to make use of the Slippery Slope cliche in fiction.

    3) You do not have to do his bidding. You can threaten him back. But lacking that knowledge as you were, you are right, your character should feel thoroughly dirty for having been forced to perform an assassination, and holding a grudge against the fish is perfectly understandable.

    gorgonzola
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @DreadKhan I have no idea how you interpreted my post as "the ends justify the means".
    But it is even more strange to me how you concluded from my relatively short post something that goes directly against what I said, "evil fantasy has no evil intent, thus making it not evil,"
    Please reread my post. I think you just glanced at it and then made up something else entirely.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,701
    @DreadKhan I have no idea how you interpreted my post as "the ends justify the means".
    But it is even more strange to me how you concluded from my relatively short post something that goes directly against what I said, "evil fantasy has no evil intent, thus making it not evil,"
    Please reread my post. I think you just glanced at it and then made up something else entirely.

    ...you literally said intent is what matters, and that's philosophical short-hand for 'the ends justify the means'.
    @DreadKhan Unfortunately we are playing a video game, so only the action can really be measured. ****But really, alignment is about intent, not action.****
    A person who desires to torture and murder another person and fantasizes about it every day yet never acts upon those urges because of fear of Law Enforcement is not of neutral alignment. That is clearly evil.

    I think we just had a lengthy argument on this in a different thread.

    I'll be game though, how on earth did you mean for that to be read???

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    edited May 6
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    ...you literally said intent is what matters, and that's philosophical short-hand for 'the ends justify the means'.
    I said that in respect to alignment. Not in respect to what is right or wrong. Do not take things out of context. And believe it or not, but it is possible for "good" (by alignment) villains to exist in the DnD verse. [no SoD spoilers at this point, though it is somewhat relevant]

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,448
    edited May 7
    @Veristek @Humanoid_Taifun @DreadKhan
    the alignment of a person can depend on his actions or on his feelings, the way the thinks, and you can debate it how long as you wish.

    but to punish a person for his alignment, to kill him for what he is, is never a act of goodness and justice.
    the people should be judged and punished only for his actions.

    let take as example an evil person, that kill other people.
    you don't punish him cause he is evil, but cause he is an assassin, you judge his action and not his alignment.
    and you surely don't punish or kill him cause he (maybe) can in the future do that action, only after he does it or if there is a clear evidence that he is going to do it, not a generic suspect that he could do it.
    if this evil person find the way to work as executioner and can legally cut heads, poison or electrocute people good for him, and you don't punish him as his killing people does not break any rule. and still he is evil in the same way and find pleasure in killing because he is sadistic, you can despise him, but will not punish him.

    to kill drow or sahaugin cause they are evil or cause the in future can... is not justice, and is an evil thing.
    to kill the drows of usth natha cause they are actively at war with the surface populations and invading an elfic city is a different thing, but then you don't kill them cause they can in the future do something, you take a position in a war that is in the present, not in the future, and you side with he surface elves.

    ThacoBelllolien
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    Gorgonzola, there's a few problems.

    1) Assuming the evil person is caught for murder, rape, mutilation, torture, etc. The evil person goes through a court trial, and the court releases him on a technicality. That means the evil person escapes justice for their actions, despite it being obvious he did the crime (besides technicality). That's where law fails. Then the victim, people who know the victim, or a Good aligned person would feel compelled to seek their own justice. That translates into vigilante justice.

    2) If the courts are biased or corrupt, or suffers bribery and racism, justice cannot be delivered by law. For example, a mafia or drug cartel bribes a judge or jury to let one of their members under trial go free. Or a white jury decides to convict a black man just because of their "hate blacks" racism. In these cases, law fails to deliver true impartial justice. Again, vigilante justice would be demanded.

    3) More Good people would support vigilante justice than those who won't. A whole community of black people and most likely many non-racist whites would likely shelter or support vigilantes who seek justice that a racist judge or jury wouldn't serve. Or a community would help a vigilante track down a child killer who got off on a technicality before the killer ends up killing more children. Or support vigilantes taking down mafia and drug cartel people that are terrorizing the area, and the police and courts not doing anything to end these threats.

    In these 3 examples, which would be Good? Evil? Acceptable? Unacceptable? Not quite so clear cut.

    A few movies / stories to give examples. "To Kill a Mockingbird" covers an example of racism in the courtroom and community. The jury could have ended up executing an innocent black man due to racism, and in turn, the actual rapists get off free, if not for the dramatic closing speech by the defendant's attorney. "Shaft" (Samuel Jackson one) has a rich white mafia-like family tamper with the witnesses to let their killer son free, and the killer goes right back to doing more crime. Shaft stops that, but the mother of a black person the white killer killed does vigilante justice by killing that killer, out of fear that the courts would let the killer go free again, either through technicality or more witness / jury tampering. The "Godfather" series has the Mafia buy off judges to let the Mafia's goons go free in court. The "Puunisher" movies and comics has the title character do vigilante justice to mafia and supervillains who weael their way out of court, or when the police are unable to prosecute obvious evil acts, For example, a mafia killed off the Punisher's whole family, including children, and the police / FBI did nothing about it, so the Punisher went and killed off the Mafia who did that to his family.

    Another movie to consider as food for thought. "Minority Report". It's about a law enforcement agency that prevents future crimes by using psychic people who can see the future. Then the law enforcement agency tracks down the criminals before they commit actual crimes, and arrest them. The agency focuses primarily on murder. In doing so, they save the lives of those who would have been murdered, but at the same time, the agency doesn't kill or torture the criminals.

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