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Started ToB, question about ??????

I just finished Chapter 7 and SoA, and started Chapter 8 in ToB. I got back to that Pocket Dimension, met ?????, and now wondering what to do with him.

I notice I can dual class ????? into a Thief or Mage. Which one should I do? F/T ????? replaces Jan? Or F/M ????? replaces someone else or 6th party slot?

Considerations: With exp cap, and without exp cap?


  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    Fighter/Mage is possible under the xp cap but it’s not practical in the least.

    Fighter/Thief is actually really fun for some Use Any Item shenanigans and completes faster due to the thief’s level progression.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    edited May 2019
    If you haven't done Watcher's Keep yet then F/T is even more reasonable, and you'll get ????'s fighter levels back at about the first quarter of ToB or earlier if you have 2 or more arcane casters (thanks to scroll memorization XP).

    You can also keep him as a pure fighter, BTW. If you've never had a full fighter before I'd suggest trying it out - it's hard to appreciate a plain two-handed weapons fighter until you've actually played one.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,931
    Nuin wrote: »
    If you haven't done Watcher's Keep yet then F/T is even more reasonable, and you'll get ????'s fighter levels back at about the first quarter of ToB or earlier if you have 2 or more arcane casters (thanks to scroll memorization XP).

    You can also keep him as a pure fighter, BTW. If you've never had a full fighter before I'd suggest trying it out - it's hard to appreciate a plain two-handed weapons fighter until you've actually played one.

    especially considering the fact that ????? has a deathbringer assault ability that deals 200 damage, which is also a nice touch :)
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    At this point, my party is the following:

    CHARNAME (fighter / mage)
    Mazzy (fighter with melee + ranged)
    Keldorn (anti-mage fighter)
    Jan (thief / mage)
    Aerie (cleric / mage)
    ?????? (fighter)

    I dropped Jaheira to make room for ?????, and Jaheira doesn't rage quit like she does in SoA. I haven't done Watcher's Keep yet. I recruited and did every character quests in SoA, so I should have all characters available from SoA.

    I'm playing with the idea of removing the exp cap, because I want to see how extreme my party can get, having finished SoA conventionally. Curious to see what happens if there's no limits.
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,055
    You probably do not need to remove the XP cap. I assume you will run out of game around the time you hit the cap.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,931
    with a team of six, and without using XP exploits, you will be hard pressed to hit the 7 million XP mark in ToB
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    While we're talking about ?????, what's the best way to optimize his picks?

    In the fight with the guards in the town right after leaving the Pocket Plane, ????? attacked one of the guards for 200 slashing damage. I was like "What? WTF!" Makes me wonder if having him do dual weapons would double the chances of doing these 200 damage hits?

    If yes, then what would be good weapons for ????? to dual wield? Swords? Axes? Katanas? Or something else?
  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    Doesn’t really matter once you get Whirlwind Attack. He comes too late in the game for you to invest into other weapons so you’re best off sticking to 2h swords.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited May 2019
    as a pure fighter he can still reach gm for halberds, right in time for the vorpal one, that is the only vorpal that has only a probability check and don't use st check.
    gww, so 10 attacks/round combined with his special assault and a vorpal chance are crazy strong.

    but i would have carried imoen with you in tob, there and with your party that is really mlee heavy, a competent main mage, that can access earlier to really high level spells and has more slots for them, can make more difference then a strong fighter.
    is possible to beat tob with 3 multi mages in vanilla, and is not so hard, but in tob if properly used the arcane magic rules, my mages can beat almost every tob boss using a single lev 7 spell
    projected image, if you had any doubt about it ;)
    i find a mage that with a lev 7 spell pull out a time stop, an improved alacrity and in the 2 remaining rounds of freeze time lowers the magic resistance, cast greater malison, spellstrike, mereor swarm or dragon breath, 5 magic missile, 5 melf acid arrows, 5 skull traps or flame arrows, breach the enemy, gate in a planetar and 4 skeletal warriors or mordy swords, improved haste the fighters and has still the time to drop in some ADHW or incendiary cloud before the TS ends way more effective then every possible fighter. by the way with rov and aop he is so fast that time stop is almost not needed, the enemy has no time to react to all that, so even the couple of enemies immune to time stop are not a problem.
    i usually almost never use the time stop, even if it is useful in some cases like with an enemy that has the natural or scripted ability to go invisible, then all the spells hit him almost instantaneously, even if proper positioning of the mage during the TS let you control the order they hit so ie the resistance is lowered and the defenses are down before the damaging spell hit

    so mr tob as fighter->mage could also be an option, but you should have done some preparation to it in soa, stealing/buying/collecting every single scroll your can find that your mages don't use to learn spells and storing them in a container in the first level of WK.
    then dropping temporarily every one but him and your romance, that as C/M will greatly benefit the added xp, go to a learn and erase procedure to speed up his down time, i don't think that all the soa scrolls and the ones you find in early tob are enough to have him immediately operative, but it would have made the down time much faster and would have him able to cast at least a lev 9 spell (improved alacrity) much sooner.
    to complete the mage dual almost 3.4M xp is needed, with the learning/erasing trick (that i never use, but many players use) i would say that it is not much slower then dual to thief.

    the thief one is interesting, but jan is as good as thief and is a good mage, even if not as good to be the primary one as he has 1 slot level more then the other multi but loose necromancy for a tob primary mage is not optimal. So i don't see all that gain in having mr tob as F->T, it needs almost 2M xp to complete, as you loose a proper primary mage or you loose his fighter hla and the chance to gm in halberds, so his special attack (only 3% chance) and the no save vorpal will never become really relevant. 200 dmg attacks will happen, but not as often and some of them would be overkill weak helpers or a boss that is anyway damaged and going to loose soon without problems.
    with the GWW and lately with the vorpal weapon to have him pull out 10 apr at the beginning of an hard battle, as soon as the enemy defenses are down, is what makes the real difference.
    i find annoying to see a 200 dmg or a vorpal on an enemy that has still less then 100hp left and will anyway fall in 1 second if the fighters are focusing on him ;)
    also one of the reason to have him thief is to use the pally sword by UAI, as he is GM in 2Hsword, but in a party with keldorn it is way less important.

    with XP cap remover i would probably use a power leveling tactic, as you have the freedom to go to the pocket plane at will.
    i would use as core party the 3 multi, taking the fighters only if a particular battle really need it, the minimum amount of fighters needed. and having all the 6 people party every time a quest reward is triggered as the amount of xp of a quest reward is fixed and given to each member while the kills xp is shared between the members so the less people there is the more each one gain xp.

    this way your multi can overcome the cap limitation and become as strong as pure mages, charname and aerie also as strong as pure fighter and cleric (jan is already strong as thief), will be able to cast up to 4 (5 for jan) lev 9 spells and your party will be probably one of the strongest possible ones in the game.
    a fighter after lev 20 really gets only some more hp and hla, and some proficiency point, but his power rising curve is declining after that point, that is the point where the caster's curve really becomes to ramp up and go crazy op.

    i would go for imoen, or use mr tob as plain fighter, eventually i would try the mage option even if without scrolls it is really long to have him able to cast the first lev 9 spell and even slower to have his fighter's levels again.
    or with the cap remover i would try to boost as high as i can the multi, with a fighter mr tob and the other fighters that take less xp, but still get a good amount as the quests one is relevant and 3 potential primary mages that can equip the robe and amulet or leave them to the others depending on the battle as they can have 3 different memorization so be suited for 3 different tactics.
    or one of them can be used for the improved alacrity and 2 of them can in the same battle use CC to drop up to 6 lev 8 spells on top of their 1 spell round limit. CC and contingency are not counted in that limit so a mage using both the contingencies and a sequencer/trigger can cast up to 7 spells/round without improved alacrity, and only one of them must be on self, the others can be on target (proper positioning of the mage is needed as CC target the nearest enemy).

    but after all it depends on the player's style, each option is good, even the F->T having a paladin in the party.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    edited May 2019
    Would you suggest I swap out Keldorn for Imoen? I want to play more with ????? and I've equpped him with the Silver Sword. I also have grown attached to Mazzy and Jan during my SoA playthrough. I can relate to Mazzy fighting discrimination cuz I deal with that in RL (disability), and I've always been a sucker for strong women who are willing to fight instead of being passive. I've been loving Jan's banters and personality as well, always some funny stuff about one of his many uncles or a bit of silly satire.

    I can't drop Aerie cuz she ended up being my love interest. Again, I liked how she grew from a sobbing whiny wreck into a more "Okay, I'll try. I can do this" positive can do attitude. Character growth makes RPG's all the more enjoyable on top of good gameplay and story and such.

    So that leaves Keldorn as the only candidate for swapping. I like him, yes, but not as attached to him as with Mazzy, Jan, and Aerie.

    By the way, I just helped the wizard in the city under siege. He sells every spell scroll in the game, so I can use him to fill out ????? since I've given CHARNAME and Aerie pretty much every spell scroll to learn in SoA.
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 123
    I usually keep him as a pure fighter. He's awesome.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited May 2019
    to swap keldorn for imoen is a strong option for many reasons.

    technically to dispel on hit a buffed aerie and charname with the sotm are just as good, the MR from the sword is nice, but ???? is much a stronger fighter, GM in the weapon, better stats (OP stats i would say...) and his special attack make him better.
    you loose the strong DM of the inquisitor, but the one of a high level mage works anyway in many situations and a TOB primary mage has other options, it is one of those things, like the druid insects, that are really strong in soa, but in TOB can be easily replaced.

    aerie is really strong and versatile in tob, things like 3 implosions or 3 storm of vengeance in a CC can make the battles much more easy, no enemy is resistant to all the damage types of the storm, the sequencers and the trigger can be used to mix arcane and divine (clerical magic resistance + lower resistance + greater malison is a classic that bring every MR to 0 and lowers the ST of an enemy in no time), but can also be used to have her instant buff to go mlee.
    a combo like holy power + righteous magic + improved haste and right at the beginning of the second round DUHM and armor of faith in the minor sequencer transform aerie in superaerie without taking away any time to her physical destroying the enemies, even if you are ambushed and don't have time to buff, stoneskin can be already on as is long lasting and PFMW if needed can be added with a contingiency.
    if i am not wrong at really high level she and her simulacrum working together can pull out something like 320 dmg/round if properly used, mlee only,
    if some CC with damaging spells is added is even more, something that keldorn at his best can only dream about unless he uses the simulacrum from the helm, that is only one for all the party so can be used let's say by ??? while aerie use a memorized one.
    this and the facts that is your romance and the only party divine caster make to drop her a very weak choice.

    Mazzy is a really good fighter and gives you a strong ranged capability and dual welding with gm is more damaging then keldorn.

    i would not dual ????, as imoen make him redundant as mage (even if he becomes less tanky as he can not use arcane spells to protect himself or boost the ac) and jan makes him redundant as thief.
    as strong fighter with a lot of gww and CS (automatic hit roll against some crazy ac and doubled damage against not protected foe) is imho the better choice.

    keep the scrolls that you need to memorize permanently, you will find only an other vendor of them in tob and will not loot many, but use the others to boost charname, lover and imoen xp as much as you can dropping temporarily the others. keep all the shapeshift, BBOD and wish scrolls you find, their use with quick slots of projected images and simulacrums is invaluable and at least 1M times more important that the xp you loose by don't learning and erasing them.
    an aerie's simulacrum dual welding a bbod and a good weapon in the OH like foa or runehammer should have a main hand thac0 of -10 or -15 depending on her level as the simulacrum uses his level drained level to apply the buffs, and his main hand weapon always rolls 24 dmg + 14 from the str, so even if is the level drained version of a multi it is quite effective, for charname simulacrum the thing is just as true, if not more as it is a mean to have GM so should add also 1/2 apr, even if i have not tested with FM if it is implemented and actually works.
    the bbod scroll in a quick slot makes charname's aerie's and (for stabs) jan's simulacrum way stronger, and the shapeshift one let their PI attack physically, in golem form for high magic resistance and tanking (in the case of aerie she also rolls every time 40 for the 4D10 damage roll if the simmy is buffed with righteous magic, or in the wolf form for more attacks and fast regeneration.

    it is possible to have both the simulacrum (with bbod equipped) and the PI (shapeshifted or spamming spells with improved alacrity) of a mage at the same time and a single scroll can be equipped on all the simulacra if their cast is slightly delayed, you just equip it on the first mage (and if you are not in a combat situation you give him also the robe and amulet to cast the clone fast, then you transfer them to the second one and repeat.

    with your party you can have 2 jan stabbing, the clone can use all the invisibility potions you have without expending and has BBOD as weapon to boost thac0 and dmg, 2 buffed aerie and 2 charnames fight at the same time, and you have still place for 2 summons, let's say a planetar and a mordy sword/skeletal warrior/cleric's elemental (no mental fight with him).

    or even better the fifth summon can be imoen's PI hasting everybody in half round and breaching enemy defenses when she is not casting fingers of death, feebleminds and damaging spells.
    this is one of the bonuses of having a magic heavy party whose mages can go mlee effectively.

    6 fighters, 2 stabbing thieves a planetar and a improved hasted mage behind, that haste them all and kill the enemy defenses, is an army, not a party...

    about your feelings about the npcs i share your taste, i like keldorn, but i am more attacked to the other possible choices.
    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited May 2019
    @Veristek you have waken up my personal demon, my powergamer soul, now i have to play some vanilla easy game to keep it again in control :D
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    I just thought of something. Would a dual'ed F / T ????? be able to use Keldorn's Holy Avenger with UAI?
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    You mean Carsomyr? If so then yes, because it's not really Keldorn's. UAI lets you use class-specific items but not NPC-specific items like Keldorn's Hallowed Redeemer.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    @joluv is right and that sword is often one of the weapons of my FMT charnames as they have uai.
    Is a good weapon, but for your party is not better then the alternatives at tob level.
    because your F/M, or a buffed aerie, can use the staff of the magi to dispel on hit, jan can equip it to use its spells if they are needed. The only thing that is still useful and powerful is the magic resistance.

    the price of it is a downtime and a mr tob way less effective then with a vorpal weapon, the silver sword until he has 5 pips in halberd and the vorpal halberd is completed. he loose also quite a bit of fighter's hla.

    for a party that has not a f/m, fmt or an other toon that can use the sotm with a good thac0 and has not jan or an other proper thief like hexxatt to dual into thief ???? is much more rewarding.

    mr tob with the helm that let a fighter have a simulacrum can mean 20 attacks/round with a vorpal weapon, compare it with the bonus of a 50% magic resistance, that mean that the 50% of some spells is blocked and judge yourself what choice is more useful for your party.
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 123
    Two Mr. Tobs wielding Ravager +6. The rest of the party can just sit back and enjoy the show.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    not my fmt charname as he with silver sword and his simulacrum with bbod will join the battle.
    with enemies that are greater malisoned and doomed by my aerie and her simulacrum 40 apr that have a chance to kill are better then 20, and as also aerie and her simulacrum buffed and a planetar will join and the PI of my main mage (with rov, aop and improved alacrity) will dispel the enemies protections the fireworks are even more satisfying...

    this is why i think that to obtain ravager +6 is completely a joke as at that stage a party can anyway dominate every enemy without effort, and in the combo i just told about mr tob is the weak link of the chain as he is really strong offensively, but somehow lacks of defense, no stoneskin, no spell immunity, it is rare, but he can die in the battle, while there is no chance that a high level fmt or aerie die, if they know what to do...

  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 123
    Does the vorpal effect of the Silver Sword work for enemies that are immune to anything less than +4 weapons?
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    no, if someone is immune to a weapon also the other effects then plain damage are blocked, this is true both if the immunity is natural or given by a spell like absolute immunity or pfmw.

    pfmw block also the vorpal effect of ravager, and in all the game there are not many enemies immune to +3 weapons.
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