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Dwarven Cleric - Optimal Stats?

DainankDainank Member Posts: 4
I would like to run a Dwarf Cleric (I know it is not optimal with the Charisma debuff), for my first serious run of this game. I have played PoE and Tyranny and that is about the only experience I have in these types of games (I understand that they are vastly different from one another but still believe the experience will help me out in understanding BD: ED1). I am therefore curious what stats people run on Clerics. I was thinking high wisdom/charisma followed by priority on constitution/strength?

Many thanks in advance!

typo_tilly

Comments

  • Grond0Grond0 Member, Moderator Posts: 5,013
    If you're power gaming (as opposed to role playing), then charisma is not particularly important (and if you're playing with a party then one of the NPCs can be used to talk to people and buy things anyway). High wisdom gives you extra spells as a cleric, while strength, dexterity and constitution help with fighting abilities. High intelligence is not needed, but you will probably want at least 9 as less than that prevents you from using some magic items.

    StummvonBordwehrtypo_tillyDainank
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 515
    edited June 3
    In BG/BG2, wisdom has zero impact on spell DCs, charisma has zero impact on undead-turning, intelligence has zero impact on skill usage, and armor never limits your AC bonus from a high dexterity. So you'll want to wear full plate as soon as possible while maxing out dexterity, constitution, and strength. If you can take wisdom to 18 as well for bonus spells, you might as well do that, though it isn't critical. Any remaining points should go to intelligence because it is trivially easy in BG2 to boost your charisma to 18 whenever you want to.

    If you're open to a slight character tweak, you might consider a multiclass fighter/cleric. You'd be a much stronger melee combatant and would still get your highest-level cleric spells relatively early in the game, unlike fighter/mages who wouldn't get them until the game is nearly over.

    Post edited by jsaving on
    typo_tillyDainank
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 71
    The thing about high wisdom? There are more ways to boost a protagonist's wisdom (3 tomes in the first game, hell trial + machine + deck of many things in the second game) than any other stat. You can reach 24 Wisdom by the end of the game if you start at 18, and each point past 18 grants two bonus spells instead of one. That's really worth quite a lot, especially at higher levels when it's level 4, 5, and 6 slots you;re gaining.

    The benefits for a high intelligence can all be gained by temporarily increasing your wisdom with potions. The benefits for a high wisdom can't; only permanently high wisdom will let you use those bonus spell slots.

    A multiclass fighter/cleric does work very well. What do you give up for that? First, you lose a few things that scale indefinitely with caster level. Single-class clerics in the late game can reliably dispel effects cast by your foes, while mages can't. Also, turn undead scales all the way; a single-class cleric can blow up liches without raising a finger. Second, you lose spell slots - most notably, seventh-level slots, which you can't mitigate with high wisdom. A single-class cleric at the experience cap has 7 seventh-level slots, while a multiclass fighter/cleric at the experience cap has 3. Third, you get slower access to the high-level spells. Most notably, it'll take you 1350K experience instead of 675K for your first sixth-level slot, and 2700K experience instead of 1350K for your first seventh-level slot. That's most of SoA you'll be down a spell level compared to a single-class cleric.

    typo_tillyDainank
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,257
    jmerry wrote: »
    The thing about high wisdom? There are more ways to boost a protagonist's wisdom (3 tomes in the first game, hell trial + machine + deck of many things in the second game) than any other stat. You can reach 24 Wisdom by the end of the game if you start at 18, and each point past 18 grants two bonus spells instead of one. That's really worth quite a lot, especially at higher levels when it's level 4, 5, and 6 slots you;re gaining.

    The benefits for a high intelligence can all be gained by temporarily increasing your wisdom with potions. The benefits for a high wisdom can't; only permanently high wisdom will let you use those bonus spell slots.

    A multiclass fighter/cleric does work very well. What do you give up for that? First, you lose a few things that scale indefinitely with caster level. Single-class clerics in the late game can reliably dispel effects cast by your foes, while mages can't. Also, turn undead scales all the way; a single-class cleric can blow up liches without raising a finger. Second, you lose spell slots - most notably, seventh-level slots, which you can't mitigate with high wisdom. A single-class cleric at the experience cap has 7 seventh-level slots, while a multiclass fighter/cleric at the experience cap has 3. Third, you get slower access to the high-level spells. Most notably, it'll take you 1350K experience instead of 675K for your first sixth-level slot, and 2700K experience instead of 1350K for your first seventh-level slot. That's most of SoA you'll be down a spell level compared to a single-class cleric.

    plus if you want, you can wear the silver iounstone from the merchant in the tavern in amketran to give you a +1 to wisdom

    Dainank
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 515
    Caster level isn't too important for a cleric in BG/BG2 because you don't use it to overcome enemy spell resistance like you would in modern D&D/Pathfinder. However @jmerry is 100% correct that "dispel magic" is an exception so you would have to live with weaker dispels if you went the fighter/cleric route.

    I'd argue however that the extra melee DPS of a fighter/cleric is worth the sacrifices. People rightfully point out the nice melee buffs on the cleric spell list, but singleclass clerics can't leverage them very well because their attacks per round are so low. By mid-BG1 a fighter/cleric would attack twice as often in melee as a singleclass cleric (2 per round versus 1 per round) and could also feasibly dual-wield flails or maces for an additional attack per round. Moreover the multiclass fighter/cleric would have key melee advantages in both early BG1 (18/00 strength) and late BG2 (whirlwind attack HLA) which give them vastly higher melee DPS compared to a singleclass cleric.

    A possibly even better choice is ranger/cleric which gives you nearly everything a fighter/cleric would plus a somewhat broader class spell list and two bonus pips in two-weapon fighting. However this isn't possible with a dwarf.

    ChroniclerDainank
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 71
    A note on the ranger/cleric spell list: unmodded, you only get the druid spells that you could cast as a ranger of your current level - which means it caps at level 3 spells once you reach ranger level 12. That amounts to Entangle (1), Charm Person/Mammal (2), Goodberry (2), Call Lightning (3), Hold Animal (3), and Summon Insects (3). It's not a very impressive list.
    These gains also come at a price - slower leveling on the warrior side, as ranger levels require more experience than fighter levels. And, as noted, you can't be a dwarf.

    I do agree that fighter/clerics and ranger/clerics are generally more powerful than pure clerics, and I'd go with one of them over a pure cleric unless that character's concept dictated otherwise. I've also gone so far as to use EEKeeper to build a dwarven defender/cleric - now there's a monster of a melee tank.

    Dainank
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 774
    jmerry wrote: »
    A note on the ranger/cleric spell list: unmodded, you only get the druid spells that you could cast as a ranger of your current level - which means it caps at level 3 spells once you reach ranger level 12. That amounts to Entangle (1), Charm Person/Mammal (2), Goodberry (2), Call Lightning (3), Hold Animal (3), and Summon Insects (3). It's not a very impressive list.
    These gains also come at a price - slower leveling on the warrior side, as ranger levels require more experience than fighter levels. And, as noted, you can't be a dwarf.

    Also the alignment restriction is a pretty big deal. You have to be good, and if you fall below a certain reputation you lose all your ranger abilities.

    Dainank
  • Very_BigSwordVery_BigSword Member Posts: 76
    I more or less agree with @sarevok57

    If pure cleric:
    Str 15+
    Dex 15+
    Con 19 (to give best saving throws and natural regen opportunity)
    Int 9 (or 10 if doing BG2 next)
    Wis 15+
    Cha 9

    So a minimum roll of 83 to get this. If you have extra points add to Str (physical offense), Dex (physical defense) or Wis (extra spell slots) according to preferred style of play.

    If Fighter/Cleric multi:
    Str 18/XX
    Dex 9 (use the Dex gauntlets) or 17 (give Dex gauntlets to NPC)
    Con 19
    Int 9 (or 10 if doing BG2 next)
    Wis 9+
    Cha 7+

    A minimum roll of 81 but I strongly recommend taking the 17 Dex build so the target would be 88/89 range. A roll in the low 90s will allow for some more Wisdom which, if you play thoroughly, should allow you to gain some bonus spells eventually. For a F/C a roll in the 90s may take a few minutes to get.

    Dainank
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